11 ms·

I loved Morrowind, but I do still lament the loss of the 'Elite as fantasy' feel for the first two Elder Scrolls games. As much as they were sparsely populated

by thom 4y ago

I loved Morrowind, but I do still lament the loss of the 'Elite as fantasy' feel for the first two Elder Scrolls games. As much as they were sparsely populated and low on story, those felt more like truly Open World games to me (I was happy running errands and clothes shopping for the most part). Morrowind was a bit of a shock to the system when I first played it. It was very well done, but many orders of magnitude smaller than Arena and Daggerfall. I can't really make a strong case that it wasn't a better game (and I enjoyed Skyrim too), but I hope we're not far off returning to procedural worlds with a new eye, especially now AI is on the verge of being a core part of asset workflows.

sbergot 4y ago
Original daggerfall creators are working on a new game in the style of daggerfall: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1685310/The_Wayward_Realms/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1685310/The_Wayward_Realm...
- galangalalgol 4y ago
  I'm glad someone is working on an open world rpg at all, but that looks very promising. Its been 11 years since skyrim and there have not been many first person sandbox rpgs since. I actually can't think of any at all unless you count things like grimrock.
  - pr0zac 4y ago
    Theres a lot more if you don't mind stepping outside of fantasy themed games. Stuff like the Far Cry series, Cyberpunk 2077, The Outer Worlds, the Dying Light series, and the Metro series. But in the fantasy realm you're right I can't think of anything since Skyrim off the top of my head thats open world AND first person.
    - throwaway675309 4y ago
      cyberpunk 2077 is about as far away from an open world RPG as you can get, it's a relatively linear story driven game. Besides the massive number of launch day bugs, that was one of them many points of contention across the reviews of the game, since the game was marketed as an open world sandbox style environment.
    - vosper 4y ago
      > Far Cry series, Cyberpunk 2077, The Outer Worlds, the Dying Light series, and the Metro series. Metro is about as on-rails as you can get? It's all "go down this one tunnel and shoot everything" or "follow this actually quite narrow and linear path across the rubble and shoot everything". Some of the missions are literally on rails (you're in a subway, after all) Far Cry is much more open than Metro, and often has some quite fun things to do if you stray off the mission path and talk to the right person. Depends how much you like to hunt and fish amidst blowing up the bad guys!
      - tomc1985 4y ago
        Metro Exodus is semi open-world, more like "open levels" that you can traverse freely and then never come back to again. I'm not sure I'd call Far Cry series RPGs. Don't mean that in a bad way (I fuckin love Far Cry), I've always seem them as an FPS with stats (a la No One Lives Forever) in an open world. I really wanted to like The Outer Worlds, but the writing seemed extremely juvenile; it touches on a lot of heavy themes (LGBTQ romance, corporate power, worker exploitation) extremely hamfistedly and without nuance. I had to put it down as I couldn't stop cringing at the writing... Now, Outer Wilds on the other hand...
        vosper 4y ago
        I put Outer Worlds down because I thought the combat was lackluster and clunky. Granted, I had been playing Doom Eternal just before Outer Worlds...
        tomc1985 4y ago
        Yeah the combat was eh and for some reason it gave me motion sickness.
  - hrydgard 4y ago
    The Witcher 3 scratches that itch fairly well to tide you over, if you haven't played it, although it is a bit different.
- willjp 4y ago
  Congratulations, you just made my 2022.
rhn_mk1 4y ago
How do you even play those games? Roaming the wilderness is clearly not a fun option.
- nix23 4y ago
  What Daggerfall Could Teach Future Elder Scrolls Games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qyxSfUceE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qyxSfUceE
  - aparticulate 4y ago
    It's quite a tired engine at this stage but Bethesda have actually been rather tech forward in the past. Especially with MS acquisition, some kind of procedural cloud-assisted world would make a ton of sense. However, towns with 300 houses with different variations of the same vendors and assets would not be immersive to most modern players. You definitely need a little on the authored side. Heck, I think Bethesda copy/pastes too much now compared to something like New Vegas which has barely has any repetition.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      > However, towns with 300 houses with different variations of the same vendors and assets would not be immersive to most modern players. Less immersive than an ostensibly grand city that only has a handful of named NPCs and a few guards? The best and worst city Bethesda have made thus far is still Vivec. Best because it has enough NPCs and redundant economy to feel like a plausible city. Worst, simply because the structure of the cantons is poorly conceived, and because the exterior is barren.
      - aparticulate 4y ago
        Vivec was probably magical at the time but I literally cannot navigate from memory. Every canton blurs together and traversal is time consuming. I think Whiterun or Megaton are quite well designed. Deprecating authored settlements in Fallout 4 was quite disappointing but Boston is probably the most impressive technically, diamond city etc nestled amongst the sprawling and surprisingly explorable ruins of the city.
schnable 4y ago
I enjoyed the procedural towns and quests but I really hated the procedurally generated dungeons.
- robonerd 4y ago
  FWIW, DaggerfallUnity has a (poorly documented) feature to swap in much smaller dungeons. https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=1689 https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=1689 (I really can't stand forum-as-documentation...)
peanut_worm 4y ago
The concept behind Arena and Daggerfall are cool but the actual gameplay is pretty horrendous. I guess people today say the same thing about Morrowind though.
- thom 4y ago
  Yeah, gameplay's a subjective thing I guess. For me, these were some of the most immersive, atmospheric and thrilling games I ever played.
slothtrop 4y ago
> sparsely populated and low on story Elden Ring is like that (or rather, not in-your-face about it). You can tell it's filling a void because re-releasing the DS formula keeps selling like hot cakes.
- vlunkr 4y ago
  So "filling a void" here means "giving fans the game they were hoping for"? We definitely weren't expecting or wanting a Bethesda game.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
kovvy 4y ago
I have high hopes for Daggerfall once they finish fixing the main bugs and it goes into beta.
aparticulate 4y ago
daggerfall unity is pretty fun if you want a modernized version of that game https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfall-unity/ https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfall-unity/
bluefirebrand 4y ago
Something like No Man's Sky, except a huge procedural world instead of universe, set in a fantasy setting, might be what you're thinking?
Klaster_1 4y ago
Reading comments like yours nudged me to try the Daggerfall recently. Thirteen hours in, I asked myself if I should continue and the answer was a definite "no". The most fun open world game parts for me are exploration and engaging activities. TES3 and newer Bethesda games exceed at this, but TES2 couldn't offer any of the sorts. If you saw a couple of dungeons and cities, you saw them all. Automatically generated quests feel like chores instead of simple adventures. The main quest did not evoke a sense of curiosity, no desire to know what happens next. I thought TES4 was bland and the worst in the series, but now the honors go to TES2. Not my kind of video game.
- tadfisher 4y ago
  It's interesting how radiant/generated quests are pretty widely criticized as the worst aspect of TES5, but everything outside the main questline in TES2 is exactly this.
  - Klaster_1 4y ago
    This surprised me too. F4 generated quest were fun only for so long, but after playing the TES2, I at least gained a valuable perspective on Bethesda games, you can really see the original DNA across the titles. I'd take dense, fun settlements over procedurally generated blandness.
- thom 4y ago
  Ah that’s a shame, but glad you’re enjoying other parts of the genre. I’ll admit, I played Arena and Daggerfall after Elite II: Frontier became one of my favourite ever games and I never bored of that either. I just enjoy having a sandbox to be in, the bigger the better. All games are pointless in the end and I find that a game that makes stronger promises to the player (dialogue, quests, items etc) feels even emptier to me once you’ve exhausted those options. Whereas a game that asks you to suspend disbelief at a lower level keeps on working for me.

by thom 4y ago

sbergot 4y ago

Original daggerfall creators are working on a new game in the style of daggerfall: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1685310/The_Wayward_Realms/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/1685310/The_Wayward_Realm...

galangalalgol 4y ago
I'm glad someone is working on an open world rpg at all, but that looks very promising. Its been 11 years since skyrim and there have not been many first person sandbox rpgs since. I actually can't think of any at all unless you count things like grimrock.
- pr0zac 4y ago
  Theres a lot more if you don't mind stepping outside of fantasy themed games. Stuff like the Far Cry series, Cyberpunk 2077, The Outer Worlds, the Dying Light series, and the Metro series. But in the fantasy realm you're right I can't think of anything since Skyrim off the top of my head thats open world AND first person.
  - throwaway675309 4y ago
    cyberpunk 2077 is about as far away from an open world RPG as you can get, it's a relatively linear story driven game. Besides the massive number of launch day bugs, that was one of them many points of contention across the reviews of the game, since the game was marketed as an open world sandbox style environment.
  - vosper 4y ago
    > Far Cry series, Cyberpunk 2077, The Outer Worlds, the Dying Light series, and the Metro series. Metro is about as on-rails as you can get? It's all "go down this one tunnel and shoot everything" or "follow this actually quite narrow and linear path across the rubble and shoot everything". Some of the missions are literally on rails (you're in a subway, after all) Far Cry is much more open than Metro, and often has some quite fun things to do if you stray off the mission path and talk to the right person. Depends how much you like to hunt and fish amidst blowing up the bad guys!
    - tomc1985 4y ago
      Metro Exodus is semi open-world, more like "open levels" that you can traverse freely and then never come back to again. I'm not sure I'd call Far Cry series RPGs. Don't mean that in a bad way (I fuckin love Far Cry), I've always seem them as an FPS with stats (a la No One Lives Forever) in an open world. I really wanted to like The Outer Worlds, but the writing seemed extremely juvenile; it touches on a lot of heavy themes (LGBTQ romance, corporate power, worker exploitation) extremely hamfistedly and without nuance. I had to put it down as I couldn't stop cringing at the writing... Now, Outer Wilds on the other hand...
      - vosper 4y ago
        I put Outer Worlds down because I thought the combat was lackluster and clunky. Granted, I had been playing Doom Eternal just before Outer Worlds...
        tomc1985 4y ago
        Yeah the combat was eh and for some reason it gave me motion sickness.
- hrydgard 4y ago
  The Witcher 3 scratches that itch fairly well to tide you over, if you haven't played it, although it is a bit different.
willjp 4y ago
Congratulations, you just made my 2022.

rhn_mk1 4y ago

How do you even play those games? Roaming the wilderness is clearly not a fun option.

nix23 4y ago
What Daggerfall Could Teach Future Elder Scrolls Games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qyxSfUceE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7qyxSfUceE
- aparticulate 4y ago
  It's quite a tired engine at this stage but Bethesda have actually been rather tech forward in the past. Especially with MS acquisition, some kind of procedural cloud-assisted world would make a ton of sense. However, towns with 300 houses with different variations of the same vendors and assets would not be immersive to most modern players. You definitely need a little on the authored side. Heck, I think Bethesda copy/pastes too much now compared to something like New Vegas which has barely has any repetition.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    > However, towns with 300 houses with different variations of the same vendors and assets would not be immersive to most modern players. Less immersive than an ostensibly grand city that only has a handful of named NPCs and a few guards? The best and worst city Bethesda have made thus far is still Vivec. Best because it has enough NPCs and redundant economy to feel like a plausible city. Worst, simply because the structure of the cantons is poorly conceived, and because the exterior is barren.
    - aparticulate 4y ago
      Vivec was probably magical at the time but I literally cannot navigate from memory. Every canton blurs together and traversal is time consuming. I think Whiterun or Megaton are quite well designed. Deprecating authored settlements in Fallout 4 was quite disappointing but Boston is probably the most impressive technically, diamond city etc nestled amongst the sprawling and surprisingly explorable ruins of the city.

schnable 4y ago

I enjoyed the procedural towns and quests but I really hated the procedurally generated dungeons.

robonerd 4y ago
FWIW, DaggerfallUnity has a (poorly documented) feature to swap in much smaller dungeons. https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=1689 https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?t=1689 (I really can't stand forum-as-documentation...)

peanut_worm 4y ago

The concept behind Arena and Daggerfall are cool but the actual gameplay is pretty horrendous. I guess people today say the same thing about Morrowind though.

thom 4y ago
Yeah, gameplay's a subjective thing I guess. For me, these were some of the most immersive, atmospheric and thrilling games I ever played.

slothtrop 4y ago

> sparsely populated and low on story Elden Ring is like that (or rather, not in-your-face about it). You can tell it's filling a void because re-releasing the DS formula keeps selling like hot cakes.

vlunkr 4y ago
So "filling a void" here means "giving fans the game they were hoping for"? We definitely weren't expecting or wanting a Bethesda game.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

kovvy 4y ago

I have high hopes for Daggerfall once they finish fixing the main bugs and it goes into beta.

aparticulate 4y ago

daggerfall unity is pretty fun if you want a modernized version of that game https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfall-unity/ https://github.com/Interkarma/daggerfall-unity/

bluefirebrand 4y ago

Something like No Man's Sky, except a huge procedural world instead of universe, set in a fantasy setting, might be what you're thinking?

Klaster_1 4y ago

Reading comments like yours nudged me to try the Daggerfall recently. Thirteen hours in, I asked myself if I should continue and the answer was a definite "no". The most fun open world game parts for me are exploration and engaging activities. TES3 and newer Bethesda games exceed at this, but TES2 couldn't offer any of the sorts. If you saw a couple of dungeons and cities, you saw them all. Automatically generated quests feel like chores instead of simple adventures. The main quest did not evoke a sense of curiosity, no desire to know what happens next. I thought TES4 was bland and the worst in the series, but now the honors go to TES2. Not my kind of video game.

tadfisher 4y ago
It's interesting how radiant/generated quests are pretty widely criticized as the worst aspect of TES5, but everything outside the main questline in TES2 is exactly this.
- Klaster_1 4y ago
  This surprised me too. F4 generated quest were fun only for so long, but after playing the TES2, I at least gained a valuable perspective on Bethesda games, you can really see the original DNA across the titles. I'd take dense, fun settlements over procedurally generated blandness.
thom 4y ago
Ah that’s a shame, but glad you’re enjoying other parts of the genre. I’ll admit, I played Arena and Daggerfall after Elite II: Frontier became one of my favourite ever games and I never bored of that either. I just enjoy having a sandbox to be in, the bigger the better. All games are pointless in the end and I find that a game that makes stronger promises to the player (dialogue, quests, items etc) feels even emptier to me once you’ve exhausted those options. Whereas a game that asks you to suspend disbelief at a lower level keeps on working for me.