4 ms·

> i very much fear arriving at a summer house where the fridge has been unpowered for a couple of weeks. Usually there's little any single person can do, but t

by trvz 4y ago

> i very much fear arriving at a summer house where the fridge has been unpowered for a couple of weeks. Usually there's little any single person can do, but this waste of electricity is very selfish considering climate change.

dpcx 4y ago
Compared to the office buildings leaving their entire office illuminated all night even though the parking lot is empty, this is less than miniscule. In the grand scheme of things, yes, it matters. But start with the big fish and you'll be less hungry.
- wildmanx 4y ago
  While I agree with the overall sentiment (fix the big problems first to maximize payoff), the issue is one of attitude. Keeping a "save where possible" mindset, no matter how large the immediate payoff (within reasonable limits) has a much greater chance of success. You have that effect in many areas of life. A quite obvious example is working out. Of course it won't make much of a difference if you skip today's workout or abort your 40 min run today halfway cause you don't feel like it. But it's the mindset/attitude. It makes you a quitter. It enables you to do the same thing again. And again. And in the end, the cumulative damage of the change in mindset is magnitudes worse than the single event.
  - 8fingerlouie 4y ago
    > Keeping a "save where possible" mindset, no matter how large the immediate payoff (within reasonable limits) has a much greater chance of success. Ironically that is what kept me from setting up solar power. Being in Scandinavia, solar has a somewhat limited potential given that days are 7 hours long during winter, and December often has less than 20 hours of sunshine in total. My calculations for the "payback" time of the solar panels said that _MAYBE_ they would have saved something before their "expiry date" some 20 years into the future. Considering the "energy and material waste" involved in creating solar panels, this task can be handled by energy companies much more efficiently than i ever can. I am still considering a share in a windmill though :)
    - maccard 4y ago
      This isn't the same thing - you've actually calculated that you're unlikely to save in this situation. You made a sensible decision that the payback period is so long for your own uses that it runs the risk of not actually paying back/being beneficial. The "save where possible" mindset would be more like "I calculated it would be better, but my impact is less than my workplace doing X, so I won't". Everyone should be calculating payback on these investments every couple of years, because the calculus changes depending on incentives/tech/other factors (e.g. EV purchases, or massive cost of living changes)
      - lazide 4y ago
        So did the other poster - the energy to cool it from room temp to what they need exceeded (or nearly so) the energy to keep it running.
    - sigg3 4y ago
      As a Norwegian looking into solar for my garage, all the products available now produce power when it's cloudy, snowy, rainy etc. First Google result: https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/busted-common-solar-myths-and-misconceptions https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/busted-common-sol...
      - 8fingerlouie 4y ago
        I’m not saying it wouldn’t produce energy, and it would probably also contribute most of the year, but the time where I need the most energy (heating and light) is also the time where it is least likely to produce any. We have an annual power consumption of 6-8k kWh, with about half during winter (heat pump, yay). More energy is required during night time due to dropping temperatures and it being dark, so realistically, I could probably save about half. At normal energy prices of €0.3/kWh, that means I would save €1200/year, and that’s without taking into account reduced electricity taxes for electric heating. Taking those into account, all electricity used beyond 4000 kWh/year would be around €0.12/kWh. Taking that into account, I could save €480/year, still assuming I could save 4000 kWh/year out of 8000 total. A solar panel installation _without_ batteries is about €13500, and saving €480/year means it would take 28 years to get back the investment. I’m aware batteries can change that equation somewhat in my favor, but it’s ever harder to calculate anything usable with those as it depends if the battery can get charged during the day. In any case, a solar panel installation with batteries is around €20000.
  - lazide 4y ago
    Or, with how people work, harping on the little things causes them to run out of shits to give for even the big things and most will tune you out. In my experience, anyway.
8fingerlouie 4y ago
Define waste. We tested it, and with our usual usage pattern of using the summerhouse every 2 weeks, the brand new fridge uses less power while powered for the 12 days between departure and arrival, than it does cooling down when powered on at arrival. Despite being brand new, it uses 6-8 hours to get from 18C to 5C. I guess because it's brand new it is well insulated, so less cooling power is needed once it's cooled down, which translates to a weaker compressor with less power consumption. As for the Raspberry Pi, it runs idle for 99% of the time, consuming _at most_ 1.15W. That amounts to 0.8 kWh in a month, which is about as much as a TV uses in 2.5 hours, or about a quarter the power consumption of a Sonos One Speaker sitting idle [1]. The total power consumption of the summerhouse uninhabited is ~1.8kWh/day, which includes the heat pump, fridge, internet modem and router, Raspberry Pi, Security Camera and a couple of hubs for IoT. [1]: https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US
- lazide 4y ago
  Definitely the case that the newer more energy efficient coolers and freezers use smaller heat pumps. It can be a real problem if you keep it empty and add a bunch of ‘warm’ thermal mass too, as it can take a day or so to get it down to safe temperatures again in some pathological cases. I started leaving a gallon jug of water (frozen) in mine as it helps give it enough thermal mass to even out the spikes. My chest freezer maxes out at 180 watts TDP for instance, which is pretty anemic if you’re trying to freeze a pot of room temperature stew.
- GZJOHN 4y ago
  > Define waste. Owning a "summer" house?
  - shapefrog 4y ago
    But the winter lodge isnt really that nice in summer.
sokoloff 4y ago
> this waste of electricity is very selfish considering climate change Moving yourself to the summer house every two weeks probably has far more climate impact than the fridge. Taking to a logical conclusion: you shouldn’t have a summer house at all. (That’s not a position that I hold, but one that seems more logical than “have a summer house; just empty out and unplug the fridge while you’re not there…”)

by trvz 4y ago

dpcx 4y ago

Compared to the office buildings leaving their entire office illuminated all night even though the parking lot is empty, this is less than miniscule. In the grand scheme of things, yes, it matters. But start with the big fish and you'll be less hungry.

wildmanx 4y ago
While I agree with the overall sentiment (fix the big problems first to maximize payoff), the issue is one of attitude. Keeping a "save where possible" mindset, no matter how large the immediate payoff (within reasonable limits) has a much greater chance of success. You have that effect in many areas of life. A quite obvious example is working out. Of course it won't make much of a difference if you skip today's workout or abort your 40 min run today halfway cause you don't feel like it. But it's the mindset/attitude. It makes you a quitter. It enables you to do the same thing again. And again. And in the end, the cumulative damage of the change in mindset is magnitudes worse than the single event.
- 8fingerlouie 4y ago
  > Keeping a "save where possible" mindset, no matter how large the immediate payoff (within reasonable limits) has a much greater chance of success. Ironically that is what kept me from setting up solar power. Being in Scandinavia, solar has a somewhat limited potential given that days are 7 hours long during winter, and December often has less than 20 hours of sunshine in total. My calculations for the "payback" time of the solar panels said that _MAYBE_ they would have saved something before their "expiry date" some 20 years into the future. Considering the "energy and material waste" involved in creating solar panels, this task can be handled by energy companies much more efficiently than i ever can. I am still considering a share in a windmill though :)
  - maccard 4y ago
    This isn't the same thing - you've actually calculated that you're unlikely to save in this situation. You made a sensible decision that the payback period is so long for your own uses that it runs the risk of not actually paying back/being beneficial. The "save where possible" mindset would be more like "I calculated it would be better, but my impact is less than my workplace doing X, so I won't". Everyone should be calculating payback on these investments every couple of years, because the calculus changes depending on incentives/tech/other factors (e.g. EV purchases, or massive cost of living changes)
    - lazide 4y ago
      So did the other poster - the energy to cool it from room temp to what they need exceeded (or nearly so) the energy to keep it running.
  - sigg3 4y ago
    As a Norwegian looking into solar for my garage, all the products available now produce power when it's cloudy, snowy, rainy etc. First Google result: https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/busted-common-solar-myths-and-misconceptions https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/articles/busted-common-sol...
    - 8fingerlouie 4y ago
      I’m not saying it wouldn’t produce energy, and it would probably also contribute most of the year, but the time where I need the most energy (heating and light) is also the time where it is least likely to produce any. We have an annual power consumption of 6-8k kWh, with about half during winter (heat pump, yay). More energy is required during night time due to dropping temperatures and it being dark, so realistically, I could probably save about half. At normal energy prices of €0.3/kWh, that means I would save €1200/year, and that’s without taking into account reduced electricity taxes for electric heating. Taking those into account, all electricity used beyond 4000 kWh/year would be around €0.12/kWh. Taking that into account, I could save €480/year, still assuming I could save 4000 kWh/year out of 8000 total. A solar panel installation _without_ batteries is about €13500, and saving €480/year means it would take 28 years to get back the investment. I’m aware batteries can change that equation somewhat in my favor, but it’s ever harder to calculate anything usable with those as it depends if the battery can get charged during the day. In any case, a solar panel installation with batteries is around €20000.
- lazide 4y ago
  Or, with how people work, harping on the little things causes them to run out of shits to give for even the big things and most will tune you out. In my experience, anyway.

8fingerlouie 4y ago

Define waste. We tested it, and with our usual usage pattern of using the summerhouse every 2 weeks, the brand new fridge uses less power while powered for the 12 days between departure and arrival, than it does cooling down when powered on at arrival. Despite being brand new, it uses 6-8 hours to get from 18C to 5C. I guess because it's brand new it is well insulated, so less cooling power is needed once it's cooled down, which translates to a weaker compressor with less power consumption. As for the Raspberry Pi, it runs idle for 99% of the time, consuming _at most_ 1.15W. That amounts to 0.8 kWh in a month, which is about as much as a TV uses in 2.5 hours, or about a quarter the power consumption of a Sonos One Speaker sitting idle [1]. The total power consumption of the summerhouse uninhabited is ~1.8kWh/day, which includes the heat pump, fridge, internet modem and router, Raspberry Pi, Security Camera and a couple of hubs for IoT. [1]: https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US https://support.sonos.com/s/article/256?language=en_US

lazide 4y ago
Definitely the case that the newer more energy efficient coolers and freezers use smaller heat pumps. It can be a real problem if you keep it empty and add a bunch of ‘warm’ thermal mass too, as it can take a day or so to get it down to safe temperatures again in some pathological cases. I started leaving a gallon jug of water (frozen) in mine as it helps give it enough thermal mass to even out the spikes. My chest freezer maxes out at 180 watts TDP for instance, which is pretty anemic if you’re trying to freeze a pot of room temperature stew.
GZJOHN 4y ago
> Define waste. Owning a "summer" house?
- shapefrog 4y ago
  But the winter lodge isnt really that nice in summer.

sokoloff 4y ago

> this waste of electricity is very selfish considering climate change Moving yourself to the summer house every two weeks probably has far more climate impact than the fridge. Taking to a logical conclusion: you shouldn’t have a summer house at all. (That’s not a position that I hold, but one that seems more logical than “have a summer house; just empty out and unplug the fridge while you’re not there…”)