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> The US took Ukraine's hand and led it directly into it. This is what Putin says. Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country and that it i

> The US took Ukraine's hand and led it directly into it. This is what Putin says. Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country and that it is his duty to make it share the fate of Belarus. Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians. They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. This is clear to any sane person. In 2014 Putin lost Ukraine so he conquered Crimea and decided to start a war in Donbas, meantime Ukrainians tried to do what they can to avoid the catastrophe, and in the end Putin decided other countries will be too scared to help Ukraine and started a full-scale war. If we let Ukrainians be slaves of Putin, we only have ourselves to blame.

pydry 4y ago
>This is what Putin says. Yes it is. Everything he says is propaganda, but not everything he says is false. >Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country This is bullshit for the domestic propaganda mill. The equivalent of Iraqi WMDs. It's disconnected from the geostrategic reasons for the invasion. >Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians Yes, just as WMDs completely ignored what was true and what was false. Grist for the propaganda mill is not designed to be true its designed to appeal to domestic audiences (& eastern ukrainians who are pissed off that their politicians are imprisoned, their media is shut down and their language rights are revoked). >They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. I cant really believe that. Zelensky chose the exact point when Russia started sending troops home after months of saying "dont join NATO" to say "we are absolutely committed to joining NATO". They were years off membership at this point and had thumbed their noses at minsk 2 for six years. I cant really see any other reason to choose to say that at that particular time other than as a geopolitical "come at me, bro". I think plenty of Ukrainians do want NATO membership purely for its defensive protection, just as cuba wanted nukes for domestic protection from US invasion. This isnt why NATO wants Ukraine though. They want to use Ukraine as a bridgehead to balkanize Russia. I have no idea what Zelenskys thinking but he either wanted this war, is a colossal idiot who sleptwalked into it coz he had multiple chances to avoid this invasion and turned down every one.
yucky 4y ago
The US was very much involved in the Ukrainian coup/revolution of 2014, and Putin invaded Crimea immediately after that coup in response. Stating those facts shouldn't necessarily be seen as a defense of Putin or a claim that Russia is 100% in the right. But it was a very obvious response from provocations. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

pydry 4y ago

>This is what Putin says. Yes it is. Everything he says is propaganda, but not everything he says is false. >Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country This is bullshit for the domestic propaganda mill. The equivalent of Iraqi WMDs. It's disconnected from the geostrategic reasons for the invasion. >Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians Yes, just as WMDs completely ignored what was true and what was false. Grist for the propaganda mill is not designed to be true its designed to appeal to domestic audiences (& eastern ukrainians who are pissed off that their politicians are imprisoned, their media is shut down and their language rights are revoked). >They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. I cant really believe that. Zelensky chose the exact point when Russia started sending troops home after months of saying "dont join NATO" to say "we are absolutely committed to joining NATO". They were years off membership at this point and had thumbed their noses at minsk 2 for six years. I cant really see any other reason to choose to say that at that particular time other than as a geopolitical "come at me, bro". I think plenty of Ukrainians do want NATO membership purely for its defensive protection, just as cuba wanted nukes for domestic protection from US invasion. This isnt why NATO wants Ukraine though. They want to use Ukraine as a bridgehead to balkanize Russia. I have no idea what Zelenskys thinking but he either wanted this war, is a colossal idiot who sleptwalked into it coz he had multiple chances to avoid this invasion and turned down every one.

yucky 4y ago

The US was very much involved in the Ukrainian coup/revolution of 2014, and Putin invaded Crimea immediately after that coup in response. Stating those facts shouldn't necessarily be seen as a defense of Putin or a claim that Russia is 100% in the right. But it was a very obvious response from provocations. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957