4 ms·

> It took six years of NATO slowly bringing Ukraine under its arm (with joint exercises, etc.) where three separate promises that it would join and three months

> It took six years of NATO slowly bringing Ukraine under its arm (with joint exercises, etc.) where three separate promises that it would join and three months of Putin sitting on the border with one demand. This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Russia wanted a warm water port so it took one by force. Former Soviet states flocked to join NATO because of Russian imperialism: they wanted protection from a former master eager to see them rejoined. Sweden and Finland now both make their bids to join NATO because of Russian imperialism, just like every other time a country has begged entry. Putin published [1] a long screed denying Ukrainian agency and statehood. How do you defend that? [1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

pydry 4y ago
>This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. In Georgia and Ukraine the US NED were paying activists the equivalent of $100k / year salaries to publish propaganda and start protests on behalf of pro western candidates. Once those pro western candidates were elected they tried to join NATO, whereupon Russia tried to invoke NATO's frozen conflict clause in order to try and prevent NATO military bases being set up on vulnerable sections of their border. Rule #1 of empire is stir up trouble on the borders of rival empires. The British knew this well. This is also why Putin tried something similar in the US 2016 election with a fraction of the resources where Americans apparently "flocked to vote in a Russia friendly president".
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  So annexing countries is OK when a country wants to join a defensive alliance against a bully? No, that's not right. And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood. Giving Putin anything (appeasement) when he actively denies the legitimacy of a state is and uses falsehoods such as "denazification" as a casus belli is not a good strategy.
  - pydry 4y ago
    NATO is an offensive alliance. In the last 20 years it has targeted 4 countries in unprovoked fits of aggression. It didnt have shit to defend against. No, that still doesnt make what Russia did ok. >And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood Coz you edited it in and I didnt see it. It's propaganda for the Russian masses / Russian speakers in ukraine. It's their WMDs. Im not defending it. It's bullshit. Nonetheless when peace negotiations happen that screed will be irrelevant. It's NATO military bases in mariupol and odessa Putin cared about not some nebulous sense of Ukrainian identity. >uses falsehoods such as "denazification" Eh, if this were all made up lies German magazines probably wouldnt be publishing photos of Ukrainian soldiers with swastika tattoos. Zelensky actually asked Azov (the Ukrainian army batallion founded by an avowed white power advocate) to back down after he was elected to try and end the war in donbass. They told him no, presumably because they dont take orders from a Jew. They did very badly when they tried to get elected but being able to say "fuck off we actually want to continue this war" and having your president defer to you does signal that your country has something of a nazi problem.
    - piva00 4y ago
      Which 4 countries? Afghanistan, Lybia and...?
      - pydry 4y ago
        and Serbia and Iraq (which was NATO minus France/Germany).
        piva00 4y ago
        NATO in Yugoslavia didn't happen in the last 20 years, it was in the 90s. Iraq wasn't a NATO mission: "NATO as an organisation had no role in the 2003 campaign since opinions among members were divided."
        pseudo0 4y ago
- hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
  > Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. First, all attempts were rejected. It was not that NATO was pushing some global agenda to expand. This is Putin's propaganda and it makes no sense. NATO countries were opposed to these countries joining because they didn't want to engage in a war with Russia over them. "You are not important to us enough to die for". Georgia is the opposite of Sweden in this respect. Kremlin's propaganda is aimed at two groups: the Russian society in general, and this lands well with them as nobody wants to be the bad guy, and Westerners with an anti-American sentiment. And they're really successful. Every now and again my colleagues send me links to Mearsheimer's videos trying to convince me all this war is only the fault of the USA, NATO, Ukraine etc. Seems like everybody is guilty except Russia.
  - pydry 4y ago
    >First, all attempts were rejected. They joined the "pathway to peace" or whatever its called. That wasnt rejection that is the road to admission - the same one Ukraine joined. >This is Putin's propaganda and it makes no sense. Google for georgia NATO relations and click on wikipedia. Its the first thing it says. Note the lack of the term "rejection". >Kremlin's propaganda Im well aware of how the Kremlins propaganda operates (selective emphasis on particular truths mostly). Mearshimer isnt a kremlin operative hes an american imperialist who wants Russia to be an ally to present a united front against China. If you and your friends were well versed in the "odessa trade unions massacre" i could imagine that youve been subjected to putins propaganda but I suspect, the flavor of propaganda you imbibe would avoid mentioning it. >Seems like everybody is guilty except Russia. Russia's guilty too, but you want to believe in a good guys (us) vs bad guys narrative which doesnt exist. This clash is evil empire vs. evil empire with ordinary ukrainians trapped in the middle, gladly sacrificed by chickenhawk Americans in the name of taking Russia down.

pydry 4y ago

>This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. In Georgia and Ukraine the US NED were paying activists the equivalent of $100k / year salaries to publish propaganda and start protests on behalf of pro western candidates. Once those pro western candidates were elected they tried to join NATO, whereupon Russia tried to invoke NATO's frozen conflict clause in order to try and prevent NATO military bases being set up on vulnerable sections of their border. Rule #1 of empire is stir up trouble on the borders of rival empires. The British knew this well. This is also why Putin tried something similar in the US 2016 election with a fraction of the resources where Americans apparently "flocked to vote in a Russia friendly president".

emptysongglass 4y ago
So annexing countries is OK when a country wants to join a defensive alliance against a bully? No, that's not right. And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood. Giving Putin anything (appeasement) when he actively denies the legitimacy of a state is and uses falsehoods such as "denazification" as a casus belli is not a good strategy.
- pydry 4y ago
  NATO is an offensive alliance. In the last 20 years it has targeted 4 countries in unprovoked fits of aggression. It didnt have shit to defend against. No, that still doesnt make what Russia did ok. >And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood Coz you edited it in and I didnt see it. It's propaganda for the Russian masses / Russian speakers in ukraine. It's their WMDs. Im not defending it. It's bullshit. Nonetheless when peace negotiations happen that screed will be irrelevant. It's NATO military bases in mariupol and odessa Putin cared about not some nebulous sense of Ukrainian identity. >uses falsehoods such as "denazification" Eh, if this were all made up lies German magazines probably wouldnt be publishing photos of Ukrainian soldiers with swastika tattoos. Zelensky actually asked Azov (the Ukrainian army batallion founded by an avowed white power advocate) to back down after he was elected to try and end the war in donbass. They told him no, presumably because they dont take orders from a Jew. They did very badly when they tried to get elected but being able to say "fuck off we actually want to continue this war" and having your president defer to you does signal that your country has something of a nazi problem.
  - piva00 4y ago
    Which 4 countries? Afghanistan, Lybia and...?
    - pydry 4y ago
      and Serbia and Iraq (which was NATO minus France/Germany).
      - piva00 4y ago
        NATO in Yugoslavia didn't happen in the last 20 years, it was in the 90s. Iraq wasn't a NATO mission: "NATO as an organisation had no role in the 2003 campaign since opinions among members were divided."
        pseudo0 4y ago
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. First, all attempts were rejected. It was not that NATO was pushing some global agenda to expand. This is Putin's propaganda and it makes no sense. NATO countries were opposed to these countries joining because they didn't want to engage in a war with Russia over them. "You are not important to us enough to die for". Georgia is the opposite of Sweden in this respect. Kremlin's propaganda is aimed at two groups: the Russian society in general, and this lands well with them as nobody wants to be the bad guy, and Westerners with an anti-American sentiment. And they're really successful. Every now and again my colleagues send me links to Mearsheimer's videos trying to convince me all this war is only the fault of the USA, NATO, Ukraine etc. Seems like everybody is guilty except Russia.
- pydry 4y ago
  >First, all attempts were rejected. They joined the "pathway to peace" or whatever its called. That wasnt rejection that is the road to admission - the same one Ukraine joined. >This is Putin's propaganda and it makes no sense. Google for georgia NATO relations and click on wikipedia. Its the first thing it says. Note the lack of the term "rejection". >Kremlin's propaganda Im well aware of how the Kremlins propaganda operates (selective emphasis on particular truths mostly). Mearshimer isnt a kremlin operative hes an american imperialist who wants Russia to be an ally to present a united front against China. If you and your friends were well versed in the "odessa trade unions massacre" i could imagine that youve been subjected to putins propaganda but I suspect, the flavor of propaganda you imbibe would avoid mentioning it. >Seems like everybody is guilty except Russia. Russia's guilty too, but you want to believe in a good guys (us) vs bad guys narrative which doesnt exist. This clash is evil empire vs. evil empire with ordinary ukrainians trapped in the middle, gladly sacrificed by chickenhawk Americans in the name of taking Russia down.