6 ms·

The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Kness

by simonh 4y ago

The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states. Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.

grapeskin 4y ago
China has Uyghur politicians, so by your reasoning, they're identical to Israel.
- simonh 4y ago
  In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. There are also incentives for people to register as members of minority groups such as scholarships*, yet also stark differences in the treatment of members of minorities who are or are not integrated into Chinese culture and the communist party in particular. It's a deliberate program of ethnic and cultural dilution and assimilation. As a result the CCP, police, etc in these regions are packed with "members of ethnic minorities" who are culturally entirely Han/Commnist and may have had an ethnic ancestor, or at least have a certificate that says so. This process is much more advanced in regions like Inner Mongolia, but they're grinding away at the native culture in Xinjiang and Tibet. * Funnily enough the criteria for scholarships open to minority groups emphasise academic performance in secular subjects, in the Chinese language and often with a political dimension heavily favouring students with strong Han cultural backgrounds.*
  - grapeskin 4y ago
    > In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. I mean, America has the one drop rule too, and you’re highly suggested to pick your most minority group any time you apply to a job, school, or basically anything. So you have people who are 1/128th Cherokee trying to game diversity benefits while people who actively culturally identify with their tribe are on reservations and basically forgotten by the world.
    - simonh 4y ago
      The situation for indigenous people in the USA is awful, sure, but it's not even remotely equivalent. The tribes determine who is or isn't a tribal member. In China the state determines such things and are actively packing the minorities with Han.
      - grapeskin 4y ago
        The one drop rule also applies to black, Hispanic, and Asian people.
        simonh 4y ago
        In fact it's mainly simply a matter of identification, it's extremely rare for anyone's ethnicity to be investigated or challenged officially. Where it does matter is in public life, particularly politics and when people purport to represent a group or ethnicity. In the US this undergoes considerable public scrutiny and if a minority group thinks someone is trying to usurp their identity or represent them inappropriately they tend to be very vocal about it and exert considerable pressure to ensure that representation is genuine. Not so much in China. Clearly representation and biases based on ethnicity in the US and west in general is a significant issue. There are many injustices. Nevertheless I think it's a bit distasteful to create false equivalences which trivialises or normalise the systematic oppression and cultural erasure that's currently succeeding at wiping out Uighur identity.
    - 4y ago
thriftwy 4y ago
The problem here is the gap between Israeli Arabs (citizens, full rights, political participation) and Palestinean Arabs (live in the same country, limited rights and political participation, citizens of partially recognizes quasistate).
Melting_Harps 4y ago
> Sorry, who are the Nazis? I've made it quite clear, and you even stated you think Zionism is abhorrent, why would you ask such a myopic question? Much worse, think that 'whataboutism' is an adequate deflection of what has been blatant genocide and crimes against Humanity. I'm not going to indulge your Zionist propaganda about flourishing cities.
- simonh 4y ago
  It's not whataboutism trying to misdirect to an unrelated issue, it's a broadening of the examination of the same conflict and behaviour by the same involved parties. I would actually agree with you that some incidents perpetrated by the Israeli military and government probably do rise to the level of war crimes. That's quite true. However I don't think it's misdirection to point out that in the same conflict the frequently stated objective, and in some cases official policy of many parties on the other side of the conflict is the planned execution of war crimes and genocide.

by simonh 4y ago

grapeskin 4y ago

China has Uyghur politicians, so by your reasoning, they're identical to Israel.

simonh 4y ago
In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. There are also incentives for people to register as members of minority groups such as scholarships*, yet also stark differences in the treatment of members of minorities who are or are not integrated into Chinese culture and the communist party in particular. It's a deliberate program of ethnic and cultural dilution and assimilation. As a result the CCP, police, etc in these regions are packed with "members of ethnic minorities" who are culturally entirely Han/Commnist and may have had an ethnic ancestor, or at least have a certificate that says so. This process is much more advanced in regions like Inner Mongolia, but they're grinding away at the native culture in Xinjiang and Tibet. * Funnily enough the criteria for scholarships open to minority groups emphasise academic performance in secular subjects, in the Chinese language and often with a political dimension heavily favouring students with strong Han cultural backgrounds.*
- grapeskin 4y ago
  > In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. I mean, America has the one drop rule too, and you’re highly suggested to pick your most minority group any time you apply to a job, school, or basically anything. So you have people who are 1/128th Cherokee trying to game diversity benefits while people who actively culturally identify with their tribe are on reservations and basically forgotten by the world.
  - simonh 4y ago
    The situation for indigenous people in the USA is awful, sure, but it's not even remotely equivalent. The tribes determine who is or isn't a tribal member. In China the state determines such things and are actively packing the minorities with Han.
    - grapeskin 4y ago
      The one drop rule also applies to black, Hispanic, and Asian people.
      - simonh 4y ago
        In fact it's mainly simply a matter of identification, it's extremely rare for anyone's ethnicity to be investigated or challenged officially. Where it does matter is in public life, particularly politics and when people purport to represent a group or ethnicity. In the US this undergoes considerable public scrutiny and if a minority group thinks someone is trying to usurp their identity or represent them inappropriately they tend to be very vocal about it and exert considerable pressure to ensure that representation is genuine. Not so much in China. Clearly representation and biases based on ethnicity in the US and west in general is a significant issue. There are many injustices. Nevertheless I think it's a bit distasteful to create false equivalences which trivialises or normalise the systematic oppression and cultural erasure that's currently succeeding at wiping out Uighur identity.
  - 4y ago

thriftwy 4y ago

The problem here is the gap between Israeli Arabs (citizens, full rights, political participation) and Palestinean Arabs (live in the same country, limited rights and political participation, citizens of partially recognizes quasistate).

Melting_Harps 4y ago

> Sorry, who are the Nazis? I've made it quite clear, and you even stated you think Zionism is abhorrent, why would you ask such a myopic question? Much worse, think that 'whataboutism' is an adequate deflection of what has been blatant genocide and crimes against Humanity. I'm not going to indulge your Zionist propaganda about flourishing cities.

simonh 4y ago
It's not whataboutism trying to misdirect to an unrelated issue, it's a broadening of the examination of the same conflict and behaviour by the same involved parties. I would actually agree with you that some incidents perpetrated by the Israeli military and government probably do rise to the level of war crimes. That's quite true. However I don't think it's misdirection to point out that in the same conflict the frequently stated objective, and in some cases official policy of many parties on the other side of the conflict is the planned execution of war crimes and genocide.