5 ms·

>The alternative to military aid is allowing Russia to continue to act out its fantasies of conquest. That wasnt the alternative. This war was 100% avoidable.

by pydry 4y ago

>The alternative to military aid is allowing Russia to continue to act out its fantasies of conquest. That wasnt the alternative. This war was 100% avoidable. The US took Ukraine's hand and led it directly into it. It took six years of NATO slowly bringing Ukraine under its arm (with joint exercises, etc.) where three separate promises that it would join and three months of Putin sitting on the border asking for it not to join. This wasnt like Iraq. This is the defensive alliance destroyed three separate countries in a fit of unprovoked pique. It's an aggressive defensive alliance. Ukraine is the clash of empires that the US military industrial complex has been craving. It gets to spend only Ukrainian lives, stratospherically boost military budgets and create a European dependence on American LNG. For the US it's win/win/win.

emptysongglass 4y ago
> It took six years of NATO slowly bringing Ukraine under its arm (with joint exercises, etc.) where three separate promises that it would join and three months of Putin sitting on the border with one demand. This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Russia wanted a warm water port so it took one by force. Former Soviet states flocked to join NATO because of Russian imperialism: they wanted protection from a former master eager to see them rejoined. Sweden and Finland now both make their bids to join NATO because of Russian imperialism, just like every other time a country has begged entry. Putin published [1] a long screed denying Ukrainian agency and statehood. How do you defend that? [1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181
- pydry 4y ago
  >This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. In Georgia and Ukraine the US NED were paying activists the equivalent of $100k / year salaries to publish propaganda and start protests on behalf of pro western candidates. Once those pro western candidates were elected they tried to join NATO, whereupon Russia tried to invoke NATO's frozen conflict clause in order to try and prevent NATO military bases being set up on vulnerable sections of their border. Rule #1 of empire is stir up trouble on the borders of rival empires. The British knew this well. This is also why Putin tried something similar in the US 2016 election with a fraction of the resources where Americans apparently "flocked to vote in a Russia friendly president".
  - emptysongglass 4y ago
    So annexing countries is OK when a country wants to join a defensive alliance against a bully? No, that's not right. And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood. Giving Putin anything (appeasement) when he actively denies the legitimacy of a state is and uses falsehoods such as "denazification" as a casus belli is not a good strategy.
    - pydry 4y ago
      NATO is an offensive alliance. In the last 20 years it has targeted 4 countries in unprovoked fits of aggression. It didnt have shit to defend against. No, that still doesnt make what Russia did ok. >And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood Coz you edited it in and I didnt see it. It's propaganda for the Russian masses / Russian speakers in ukraine. It's their WMDs. Im not defending it. It's bullshit. Nonetheless when peace negotiations happen that screed will be irrelevant. It's NATO military bases in mariupol and odessa Putin cared about not some nebulous sense of Ukrainian identity. >uses falsehoods such as "denazification" Eh, if this were all made up lies German magazines probably wouldnt be publishing photos of Ukrainian soldiers with swastika tattoos. Zelensky actually asked Azov (the Ukrainian army batallion founded by an avowed white power advocate) to back down after he was elected to try and end the war in donbass. They told him no, presumably because they dont take orders from a Jew. They did very badly when they tried to get elected but being able to say "fuck off we actually want to continue this war" and having your president defer to you does signal that your country has something of a nazi problem.
      - piva00 4y ago
        Which 4 countries? Afghanistan, Lybia and...?
        pydry 4y ago
        and Serbia and Iraq (which was NATO minus France/Germany).
hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago
> The US took Ukraine's hand and led it directly into it. This is what Putin says. Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country and that it is his duty to make it share the fate of Belarus. Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians. They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. This is clear to any sane person. In 2014 Putin lost Ukraine so he conquered Crimea and decided to start a war in Donbas, meantime Ukrainians tried to do what they can to avoid the catastrophe, and in the end Putin decided other countries will be too scared to help Ukraine and started a full-scale war. If we let Ukrainians be slaves of Putin, we only have ourselves to blame.
- pydry 4y ago
  >This is what Putin says. Yes it is. Everything he says is propaganda, but not everything he says is false. >Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country This is bullshit for the domestic propaganda mill. The equivalent of Iraqi WMDs. It's disconnected from the geostrategic reasons for the invasion. >Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians Yes, just as WMDs completely ignored what was true and what was false. Grist for the propaganda mill is not designed to be true its designed to appeal to domestic audiences (& eastern ukrainians who are pissed off that their politicians are imprisoned, their media is shut down and their language rights are revoked). >They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. I cant really believe that. Zelensky chose the exact point when Russia started sending troops home after months of saying "dont join NATO" to say "we are absolutely committed to joining NATO". They were years off membership at this point and had thumbed their noses at minsk 2 for six years. I cant really see any other reason to choose to say that at that particular time other than as a geopolitical "come at me, bro". I think plenty of Ukrainians do want NATO membership purely for its defensive protection, just as cuba wanted nukes for domestic protection from US invasion. This isnt why NATO wants Ukraine though. They want to use Ukraine as a bridgehead to balkanize Russia. I have no idea what Zelenskys thinking but he either wanted this war, is a colossal idiot who sleptwalked into it coz he had multiple chances to avoid this invasion and turned down every one.
- yucky 4y ago

by pydry 4y ago

emptysongglass 4y ago

> It took six years of NATO slowly bringing Ukraine under its arm (with joint exercises, etc.) where three separate promises that it would join and three months of Putin sitting on the border with one demand. This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Russia wanted a warm water port so it took one by force. Former Soviet states flocked to join NATO because of Russian imperialism: they wanted protection from a former master eager to see them rejoined. Sweden and Finland now both make their bids to join NATO because of Russian imperialism, just like every other time a country has begged entry. Putin published [1] a long screed denying Ukrainian agency and statehood. How do you defend that? [1] http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181 http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/66181

pydry 4y ago
>This is propaganda. If you recall, Russia annexed bits of Georgia and Crimea. Preceded in each case, if you recall, by attempts by those countries to join NATO. In Georgia and Ukraine the US NED were paying activists the equivalent of $100k / year salaries to publish propaganda and start protests on behalf of pro western candidates. Once those pro western candidates were elected they tried to join NATO, whereupon Russia tried to invoke NATO's frozen conflict clause in order to try and prevent NATO military bases being set up on vulnerable sections of their border. Rule #1 of empire is stir up trouble on the borders of rival empires. The British knew this well. This is also why Putin tried something similar in the US 2016 election with a fraction of the resources where Americans apparently "flocked to vote in a Russia friendly president".
- emptysongglass 4y ago
  So annexing countries is OK when a country wants to join a defensive alliance against a bully? No, that's not right. And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood. Giving Putin anything (appeasement) when he actively denies the legitimacy of a state is and uses falsehoods such as "denazification" as a casus belli is not a good strategy.
  - pydry 4y ago
    NATO is an offensive alliance. In the last 20 years it has targeted 4 countries in unprovoked fits of aggression. It didnt have shit to defend against. No, that still doesnt make what Russia did ok. >And you still have not responded to my question regarding Putin's screed denying Ukrainian statehood Coz you edited it in and I didnt see it. It's propaganda for the Russian masses / Russian speakers in ukraine. It's their WMDs. Im not defending it. It's bullshit. Nonetheless when peace negotiations happen that screed will be irrelevant. It's NATO military bases in mariupol and odessa Putin cared about not some nebulous sense of Ukrainian identity. >uses falsehoods such as "denazification" Eh, if this were all made up lies German magazines probably wouldnt be publishing photos of Ukrainian soldiers with swastika tattoos. Zelensky actually asked Azov (the Ukrainian army batallion founded by an avowed white power advocate) to back down after he was elected to try and end the war in donbass. They told him no, presumably because they dont take orders from a Jew. They did very badly when they tried to get elected but being able to say "fuck off we actually want to continue this war" and having your president defer to you does signal that your country has something of a nazi problem.
    - piva00 4y ago
      Which 4 countries? Afghanistan, Lybia and...?
      - pydry 4y ago
        and Serbia and Iraq (which was NATO minus France/Germany).

hdjjhhvvhga 4y ago

> The US took Ukraine's hand and led it directly into it. This is what Putin says. Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country and that it is his duty to make it share the fate of Belarus. Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians. They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. This is clear to any sane person. In 2014 Putin lost Ukraine so he conquered Crimea and decided to start a war in Donbas, meantime Ukrainians tried to do what they can to avoid the catastrophe, and in the end Putin decided other countries will be too scared to help Ukraine and started a full-scale war. If we let Ukrainians be slaves of Putin, we only have ourselves to blame.

pydry 4y ago
>This is what Putin says. Yes it is. Everything he says is propaganda, but not everything he says is false. >Moreover, he argues that Ukraine has never been a real country This is bullshit for the domestic propaganda mill. The equivalent of Iraqi WMDs. It's disconnected from the geostrategic reasons for the invasion. >Unfortunately, this argument completely ignores the will of Ukrainians Yes, just as WMDs completely ignored what was true and what was false. Grist for the propaganda mill is not designed to be true its designed to appeal to domestic audiences (& eastern ukrainians who are pissed off that their politicians are imprisoned, their media is shut down and their language rights are revoked). >They did not want to join NATO because they wanted a war but because they wanted to avoid it. I cant really believe that. Zelensky chose the exact point when Russia started sending troops home after months of saying "dont join NATO" to say "we are absolutely committed to joining NATO". They were years off membership at this point and had thumbed their noses at minsk 2 for six years. I cant really see any other reason to choose to say that at that particular time other than as a geopolitical "come at me, bro". I think plenty of Ukrainians do want NATO membership purely for its defensive protection, just as cuba wanted nukes for domestic protection from US invasion. This isnt why NATO wants Ukraine though. They want to use Ukraine as a bridgehead to balkanize Russia. I have no idea what Zelenskys thinking but he either wanted this war, is a colossal idiot who sleptwalked into it coz he had multiple chances to avoid this invasion and turned down every one.
yucky 4y ago