2 ms·

In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of t

by mcv 4y ago

In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of the EP, but by backroom negotiations between the national governments, each of which is really a coalition of parties, the largest of which generally has a prominent party member that they want to push forward as their country's candidate for the EC. It is significantly less direct than in a normal parliamentary democracy. It's more like your national government would be formed by all mayors pushing forward a former city councillor from their party to form the national government. [0] Not just republics, also constitutional monarchies

gpderetta 4y ago
But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]
- arlort 4y ago
  I'm also italian Turns out our system, while based on the same basic principles evolved in a very different way from the UK/Germany etc For the UK the main difference is that most of their governments are majority governments, due to their electoral system either labour or the tories are going to have (in 90% of cases) an outright majority, so the government (at least the PM) is going to be pretty much known as soon as the election is over In germany/the netherlands they have more often coalitions so you don't know until after the parties have negotiated post-election. This is closer to what we have in italy, however there are two differences: 1. There are strong conventions about the larger party taking the head of government position, something like what happened with the Conte I government where two parties agreed on a government but had to bring in a "neutral" PM does not happen abroad 2. Governments are more likely to last the length of the mandate, specifically it's quite rare to have governments fall and bring in a "governo tecnico" headed by a neutral PM So turns out that other countries are much less used to have the PM be someone that hasn't campaigned at all A third difference, in which italy is quite unique amongst parliamentary systems, is that both chambers have to give their confidence, almost everywhere else it's just the lower house, while in italy also the Senate must agree to a government. This is similar to how the European Council also has to agree on the EU commission members but very unlike other countries, where the upper houses are at worst symbolical and at best very constrained in their powers
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    Certainly FPTP voting system lead to different dynamics, but even in UK, for example after Brexit, there have been prime minister changes without voting. Cabinet reshuffles are also not unheard of after power balance changes in the ruling party. But yes, 'technical governments' are certainly an Italian quirk. Regarding the Council (assuming you are referring to the council of the EU), that's certainly an institution I would like to see reformed as it is a body with legislative powers composed by executive members.
    - arlort 4y ago
      There have been, but it's quite rare and not something they spend a whole lot of time thinking about > Council (assuming you are referring to the council of the EU) I was actually referring to the European Council, since it's the organ that is involved in the election of the Commission But agreed on the national executive branches legislating at the EU. That is at the same time the most undemocratic thing about the EU and the least common criticism, which I find baffling Personally I'd rather the council operated as a parliamentary assembly made up of delegations from national parliaments / national parliamentary committees I just don't want it to be directly elected too, the US made that mistake with the 17th amendment and I always get the feeling they're worse off for it
    - mike_hearn 4y ago
      there have been prime minister changes without voting. As mentioned elsewhere, that's not the case. The PM has always won at least two votes, one in their constituency (winning a local election) and another from their party membership. What you really mean is, there has been no universal vote on the choice of PM themselves, which is correct. It's not a presidential system. However, that doesn't mean they never won a vote. In contrast, the EU is run by people who have never actually won a vote. Or, well, technically von der Leyen won a "vote" in the EU Parliament but she was the only candidate who was on the list, so "winning" only meant reaching the quorum threshold.
      - arlort 4y ago

by mcv 4y ago

gpderetta 4y ago

But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]

arlort 4y ago
I'm also italian Turns out our system, while based on the same basic principles evolved in a very different way from the UK/Germany etc For the UK the main difference is that most of their governments are majority governments, due to their electoral system either labour or the tories are going to have (in 90% of cases) an outright majority, so the government (at least the PM) is going to be pretty much known as soon as the election is over In germany/the netherlands they have more often coalitions so you don't know until after the parties have negotiated post-election. This is closer to what we have in italy, however there are two differences: 1. There are strong conventions about the larger party taking the head of government position, something like what happened with the Conte I government where two parties agreed on a government but had to bring in a "neutral" PM does not happen abroad 2. Governments are more likely to last the length of the mandate, specifically it's quite rare to have governments fall and bring in a "governo tecnico" headed by a neutral PM So turns out that other countries are much less used to have the PM be someone that hasn't campaigned at all A third difference, in which italy is quite unique amongst parliamentary systems, is that both chambers have to give their confidence, almost everywhere else it's just the lower house, while in italy also the Senate must agree to a government. This is similar to how the European Council also has to agree on the EU commission members but very unlike other countries, where the upper houses are at worst symbolical and at best very constrained in their powers
- gpderetta 4y ago
  Certainly FPTP voting system lead to different dynamics, but even in UK, for example after Brexit, there have been prime minister changes without voting. Cabinet reshuffles are also not unheard of after power balance changes in the ruling party. But yes, 'technical governments' are certainly an Italian quirk. Regarding the Council (assuming you are referring to the council of the EU), that's certainly an institution I would like to see reformed as it is a body with legislative powers composed by executive members.
  - arlort 4y ago
    There have been, but it's quite rare and not something they spend a whole lot of time thinking about > Council (assuming you are referring to the council of the EU) I was actually referring to the European Council, since it's the organ that is involved in the election of the Commission But agreed on the national executive branches legislating at the EU. That is at the same time the most undemocratic thing about the EU and the least common criticism, which I find baffling Personally I'd rather the council operated as a parliamentary assembly made up of delegations from national parliaments / national parliamentary committees I just don't want it to be directly elected too, the US made that mistake with the 17th amendment and I always get the feeling they're worse off for it
  - mike_hearn 4y ago
    there have been prime minister changes without voting. As mentioned elsewhere, that's not the case. The PM has always won at least two votes, one in their constituency (winning a local election) and another from their party membership. What you really mean is, there has been no universal vote on the choice of PM themselves, which is correct. It's not a presidential system. However, that doesn't mean they never won a vote. In contrast, the EU is run by people who have never actually won a vote. Or, well, technically von der Leyen won a "vote" in the EU Parliament but she was the only candidate who was on the list, so "winning" only meant reaching the quorum threshold.
    - arlort 4y ago