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You bomb, torture and kill them till you get a dictatorial regime that is subservient to you?

thriftwy 4y ago
You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. That seems to be a very high bar if we compare it with USA/NATO/EU/Chinese endeavours in any of Muslim regions. The grandparent made it sound like the devastation were ongoing, which it's not. Stopping the violence is a good thing. If you don't acknowledge it, you can't even tell failure from success and all of your (Xinjiang and otherwise) efforts would be misguided.
- Jataman606 4y ago
  Russia started war in Chechnya (first indirectly by arming opposition, then by literally starting war). Spinning it to say that they tried to win the war to turn Chechnya to peaceful region is very disingenuous.
- watwut 4y ago
  > You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. Not starting that war in the first place would be even better. > Stopping the violence is a good thing. Not committing it in the first place is even better.
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    It is a region of Russia and it is practically landlocked from all sides by other Russia, and also it seems to have started the war by attacking Dagestan (also in Russia). So even comparing it to Xinjiang, which China could plausible give away, Russia could not get rid of Chechnya even of it wanted. What other outcome would you expect? But, that has ended 15 years ago, by now.
    - Sporktacular 4y ago
      Give away? Give to who? What are you talking about? You're pivoting constantly and not defending your arguments. Why should anyone take your own words more seriously than you do?
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you are a much worse perpetrator yourself.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him. You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting Ichkeria? Absolutely-ish. I don't really like Kadyrov, but we are talking about a Muslim region and not yours and mine personal preferences. You seem to assume that any Muslim region would want, and implement, a liberal democratic power structure. Well, tough luck finding that between Iraq and Afghanistan. Or in Russia for that matter. I just don't feel that it's an atrocity. The fate of Afghanistan is an atrocity. Chechnya, not so much, it's just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities.

You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. That seems to be a very high bar if we compare it with USA/NATO/EU/Chinese endeavours in any of Muslim regions. The grandparent made it sound like the devastation were ongoing, which it's not. Stopping the violence is a good thing. If you don't acknowledge it, you can't even tell failure from success and all of your (Xinjiang and otherwise) efforts would be misguided.

Jataman606 4y ago
Russia started war in Chechnya (first indirectly by arming opposition, then by literally starting war). Spinning it to say that they tried to win the war to turn Chechnya to peaceful region is very disingenuous.
watwut 4y ago
> You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. Not starting that war in the first place would be even better. > Stopping the violence is a good thing. Not committing it in the first place is even better.
- thriftwy 4y ago
  It is a region of Russia and it is practically landlocked from all sides by other Russia, and also it seems to have started the war by attacking Dagestan (also in Russia). So even comparing it to Xinjiang, which China could plausible give away, Russia could not get rid of Chechnya even of it wanted. What other outcome would you expect? But, that has ended 15 years ago, by now.
  - Sporktacular 4y ago
    Give away? Give to who? What are you talking about? You're pivoting constantly and not defending your arguments. Why should anyone take your own words more seriously than you do?
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you are a much worse perpetrator yourself.
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him. You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.
        thriftwy 4y ago
        Russia has got a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works. Jataman606 did not really refute it, instead pivoting into biased history diving. "No civil society left, horrendous human rights violations" is what there were before the Second Chechen war - there was an alpha version of ISIS there, with slave markets and kidnappings for ransom. Was it worth it fighting ISIS? Absolutely. Was it worth it fighting Ichkeria? Absolutely-ish. I don't really like Kadyrov, but we are talking about a Muslim region and not yours and mine personal preferences. You seem to assume that any Muslim region would want, and implement, a liberal democratic power structure. Well, tough luck finding that between Iraq and Afghanistan. Or in Russia for that matter. I just don't feel that it's an atrocity. The fate of Afghanistan is an atrocity. Chechnya, not so much, it's just people living up to their own political preferences and capabilities.