5 ms·

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many source

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT: Wow, actually more than a decade now since the original BDS statement.

Melting_Harps 4y ago
[flagged]
- IntrepidWorm 4y ago
  Calling Zionism equivalent to Nazism seems to be an overgeneralization. It would be better served to point out the similarities of both movements as overtly nationalistic, militant, and carried strongly by an undercurrent of racism. Furthermore, the current definition of Nazi is shifting away from that of the political party of the 30's and 40's and blending with a multitude of other racist and nationistic sentiments. The persecution of an ethnic group towards the annihilation of their identity and way of life is inherently genocidal, but genocide predates Nazism and Zionism by millennia.
- simonh 4y ago
  The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states. Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.
  - grapeskin 4y ago
    China has Uyghur politicians, so by your reasoning, they're identical to Israel.
    - simonh 4y ago
      In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. There are also incentives for people to register as members of minority groups such as scholarships*, yet also stark differences in the treatment of members of minorities who are or are not integrated into Chinese culture and the communist party in particular. It's a deliberate program of ethnic and cultural dilution and assimilation. As a result the CCP, police, etc in these regions are packed with "members of ethnic minorities" who are culturally entirely Han/Commnist and may have had an ethnic ancestor, or at least have a certificate that says so. This process is much more advanced in regions like Inner Mongolia, but they're grinding away at the native culture in Xinjiang and Tibet. * Funnily enough the criteria for scholarships open to minority groups emphasise academic performance in secular subjects, in the Chinese language and often with a political dimension heavily favouring students with strong Han cultural backgrounds.*
      - grapeskin 4y ago
        > In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. I mean, America has the one drop rule too, and you’re highly suggested to pick your most minority group any time you apply to a job, school, or basically anything. So you have people who are 1/128th Cherokee trying to game diversity benefits while people who actively culturally identify with their tribe are on reservations and basically forgotten by the world.
        simonh 4y ago
        The situation for indigenous people in the USA is awful, sure, but it's not even remotely equivalent. The tribes determine who is or isn't a tribal member. In China the state determines such things and are actively packing the minorities with Han.
- dmos62 4y ago
  I think that what you said is an important point to make, and thanks for making it. Note, that you lost some people when you said "anyone with a even a shred of reason would conclude that Zionism is the very reincarnation of Nazism". That's too dramatic: say bold things in subtle ways. If you're comparing Israel's and WW2 Germany's oppressive and violent tendencies, say that without generalizing, otherwise you might sound lazy or dogmatic.
- james-redwood 4y ago
  Where are the death camps? The gas chambers? This comment has no place on HN for sheer idiocy and sensationalism.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > Where are the death camps? The gas chambers? This comment has no place on HN for sheer idiocy and sensationalism. Gaza itself is an open air internment camp, under Israeli occupation; they use illegal munitions on civilian targets, and claim that its extremist reside within those homes. Their is a literal wall surrounding all of Gaza in order to keep them in place, and you have the audacity to make such a claim? Any aid that tries to come results in the same situation: volunteers get killed illegally by the Israeli military as expansion into the West bank continues. Just because YOU refuse to acknowledge the Crimes doesn't mean they don't take place.
    - thematrixturtle 4y ago
      I agree that Gaza is a crime against humanity, but neither is it Buchenwald and you're not doing your argument any favors with the hyperbole.
    - abigail95 4y ago
      if you use a different definition of camp that other people use nobody will understand what you are saying gaza is under blockade because after israel gave them full autonomy they elected a terrorist government and attacked israel
    - refurb 4y ago
      I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada.
      - Melting_Harps 4y ago
        > I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada. They literately prevent aid from coming into Gaza, and you think it's the same thing? Moreover, Palestinian fisherman aren't allowed to go beyond 1 mile out to shore as the Israeli State forbids them from going any further and are monitored and surveilled, under some obtuse justification. Shelling of civilian areas is a common occurrence. What you should find funny is your capacity for false equivalences, and perhaps how sick of a sense of humour you have that you can find any of this even remotely amusing. None of this funny, it's a blight on humanity that such a thing occurs in the 21st Century (be it in China, Russia or Israel) and that we can still deem people 'less than' based on some a cult like nationalist, and genocidal ideology which is what Nazism was ultimately based on. I use that work specifically to reflect the hypocrisy of the Zionist agenda because they have used it for so long to shut down any discourse on the matter and has allowed this to occur in the first place, but I could easily refer to any other number of genocides, too. I choose not to. The point is: I choose my words carefully, so should you.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  > No, they are called Nazis, when anyone with a even a shred of reason would conclude that Zionism is the very reincarnation of Nazism and is used to suit their own agenda and narrative. What? Israel doesn't run concentration camps, forced labor camps, or rounds up and executes Palestinians for being Palestinians. That comparison is not just factually wrong, it's one of the most morally despicable takes I have ever had the displeasure of reading here on HN.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > That comparison is not just factually wrong, it's one of the most morally despicable takes I have ever had the displeasure of reading here on HN. According to who, you? Have you actually looked at what and how Palestinian's are forced to live during occupation and then made worse after COVID? Here is an example of fored labour via poverty [0]: Construction and infrastructure projects in Israel, and in Israeli settlements within the West Bank, are hugely dependent upon Palestinian labor. Under a lockdown in a pandemic this means that Palestinian workers are exposed to serious health risks while helping Israel cement its control over Palestinian land and people. You want to see death squads in Palestine? But how about just watching illegal phosphorous munitions (a war crime) being used on Civilians [1]. You can also look into all of the atrocities of disproportionate violence against civilians by the Isreali military (which is to say the Israeli Citizens themselves since it's mandatory) from re-settlement on your own. Your selective biases and forced narrative work with those with woke political bends, that much is clear, but they fall under even the slightest amount of scrutiny for anyone who is willing to look. And before you resort to the absurd notions of antisemitism, I've been helping in Ukraine since the Maidan Revolution which has a large Jewish population, specifically in Lviv which is where I've spent the most time. This has nothing to do with antisemitism and everything to do with calling people who are driven by genocidal and ethnic cleansing ideology what they are: Israelis as a whole have become the very thing they supposedly detested and have behaved that way since the re-settlement after WWII. 0: https://merip.org/2020/05/palestinian-workers-in-israel-caught-between-indispensable-and-disposable/ https://merip.org/2020/05/palestinian-workers-in-israel-caug... 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/23/israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/23/israel
lazylion2 4y ago
"almost exactly the same situation" Did the Muslims in Xinjiang declare a war against China? did they blow up Chinese buses or shoot thousands of rockets at Chinese civilians ?
- plankers 4y ago
  uh yeah, kinda. the following is from 2011. >In recent years, ETIM has set up bases outside China to train terrorists and has dispatched its members to China to plot and execute terrorist acts including bombing buses, cinemas, department stores, markets and hotels. ETIM has also undertaken assassinations and arson attacks and has carried out terrorist attacks against Chinese targets abroad. Among the violent acts committed by ETIM members were the blowing up of the warehouse of the Urumqi Train Station on 23 May 1998, the armed looting of 247,000 RMB Yuan in Urumqi on 4 February 1999, an explosion in Hetian City, Xinjiang, on 25 March 1999 and violent resistance against arrest in Xinhe County, Xinjiang, on 18 June 1999. These incidents resulted in the deaths of 140 people and injuries to 371. https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/sanctions/1267/aq_sanctions_list/summaries/entity/eastern-turkistan-islamic-movement https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/sanctions/1267/aq_sanctio...
- cies 4y ago
  Indeed, only the actions of the oppressor are "almost exactly the same". The Uygars have so far been a lot more peaceful in their oppression. I also find that Israel is very good in presenting itself in the western MSM, while China seems to have the western MSM against it lately. That makes me also a bit more hesitant to accept the MSM's China critiques.
- skitout 4y ago
  There have been several (terrorist) attacks against Chinese civilians in Xinjiang over the years. The perpetrators have been lone wolfs, and people part of organized groups. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict Personally I think that attack on civilians cannot justify the actions of Chinese state or of the Israeli state (massive repression against civilians and continued colonization). And while I condemn both China and Israel for such actions, the two situation are very different.
dr_faustus 4y ago
Ok, so: Israel has currently ~4500 Palestinians detained = < 0.1% [1] China has about 1.8m Uygurs in internment camps = 14% [2] I would call that a far cry. Also, many other statistics of welfare, e.g. child mortality or GPD/capita in the West Bank and Gaza are about the same or better than in the neighboring countries (Jordan, Egypt). On the other hand, there seems to be quite substantial evidence for mass sterilizations and abortions forced on Uygurs in China. I have never heard of anything like that committed by Israel. Again, I do believe that there are overreaches and overreactions on the Israeli side to actions by the Palestinians and there are innocent lives lost on both sides. I really hope, that they at some point manage to either live together peacefully or agree on a two state solution. But there is a very substantial difference between that and the plight of the Uygurs. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/17/infographic-how-many-palestinians-are-imprisoned-by-israel https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/17/infographic-how-man... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Inside_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Inside_internm...
- akhmatova 4y ago
  Israel has currently ~4500 Palestinians detained = < 0.1% [1] The entire West Bank and Gaza Strip are effectively a giant detention camp.
schnable 4y ago
Israel for all its faults vis-a-vis the Palestinians is not committing ethnic cleansing or anything close to it. People who claim genocide by the Israelis are either anti-semetic or basing their opinions on anti-semitic disinformation.

Melting_Harps 4y ago

[flagged]

IntrepidWorm 4y ago
Calling Zionism equivalent to Nazism seems to be an overgeneralization. It would be better served to point out the similarities of both movements as overtly nationalistic, militant, and carried strongly by an undercurrent of racism. Furthermore, the current definition of Nazi is shifting away from that of the political party of the 30's and 40's and blending with a multitude of other racist and nationistic sentiments. The persecution of an ethnic group towards the annihilation of their identity and way of life is inherently genocidal, but genocide predates Nazism and Zionism by millennia.
simonh 4y ago
The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states. Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.
- grapeskin 4y ago
  China has Uyghur politicians, so by your reasoning, they're identical to Israel.
  - simonh 4y ago
    In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. There are also incentives for people to register as members of minority groups such as scholarships*, yet also stark differences in the treatment of members of minorities who are or are not integrated into Chinese culture and the communist party in particular. It's a deliberate program of ethnic and cultural dilution and assimilation. As a result the CCP, police, etc in these regions are packed with "members of ethnic minorities" who are culturally entirely Han/Commnist and may have had an ethnic ancestor, or at least have a certificate that says so. This process is much more advanced in regions like Inner Mongolia, but they're grinding away at the native culture in Xinjiang and Tibet. * Funnily enough the criteria for scholarships open to minority groups emphasise academic performance in secular subjects, in the Chinese language and often with a political dimension heavily favouring students with strong Han cultural backgrounds.*
    - grapeskin 4y ago
      > In China you are a member of an ethnic minority if one of your grandparents was of that ethnicity, who themselves might only have had one grandparent of that ethnicity. I mean, America has the one drop rule too, and you’re highly suggested to pick your most minority group any time you apply to a job, school, or basically anything. So you have people who are 1/128th Cherokee trying to game diversity benefits while people who actively culturally identify with their tribe are on reservations and basically forgotten by the world.
      - simonh 4y ago
        The situation for indigenous people in the USA is awful, sure, but it's not even remotely equivalent. The tribes determine who is or isn't a tribal member. In China the state determines such things and are actively packing the minorities with Han.
dmos62 4y ago
I think that what you said is an important point to make, and thanks for making it. Note, that you lost some people when you said "anyone with a even a shred of reason would conclude that Zionism is the very reincarnation of Nazism". That's too dramatic: say bold things in subtle ways. If you're comparing Israel's and WW2 Germany's oppressive and violent tendencies, say that without generalizing, otherwise you might sound lazy or dogmatic.
james-redwood 4y ago
Where are the death camps? The gas chambers? This comment has no place on HN for sheer idiocy and sensationalism.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > Where are the death camps? The gas chambers? This comment has no place on HN for sheer idiocy and sensationalism. Gaza itself is an open air internment camp, under Israeli occupation; they use illegal munitions on civilian targets, and claim that its extremist reside within those homes. Their is a literal wall surrounding all of Gaza in order to keep them in place, and you have the audacity to make such a claim? Any aid that tries to come results in the same situation: volunteers get killed illegally by the Israeli military as expansion into the West bank continues. Just because YOU refuse to acknowledge the Crimes doesn't mean they don't take place.
  - thematrixturtle 4y ago
    I agree that Gaza is a crime against humanity, but neither is it Buchenwald and you're not doing your argument any favors with the hyperbole.
  - abigail95 4y ago
    if you use a different definition of camp that other people use nobody will understand what you are saying gaza is under blockade because after israel gave them full autonomy they elected a terrorist government and attacked israel
  - refurb 4y ago
    I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada.
    - Melting_Harps 4y ago
      > I find it funny when Israel is accuse of "controlling the borders of Gaza". I mean, by the same logic, the US controls the borders of Canada. They literately prevent aid from coming into Gaza, and you think it's the same thing? Moreover, Palestinian fisherman aren't allowed to go beyond 1 mile out to shore as the Israeli State forbids them from going any further and are monitored and surveilled, under some obtuse justification. Shelling of civilian areas is a common occurrence. What you should find funny is your capacity for false equivalences, and perhaps how sick of a sense of humour you have that you can find any of this even remotely amusing. None of this funny, it's a blight on humanity that such a thing occurs in the 21st Century (be it in China, Russia or Israel) and that we can still deem people 'less than' based on some a cult like nationalist, and genocidal ideology which is what Nazism was ultimately based on. I use that work specifically to reflect the hypocrisy of the Zionist agenda because they have used it for so long to shut down any discourse on the matter and has allowed this to occur in the first place, but I could easily refer to any other number of genocides, too. I choose not to. The point is: I choose my words carefully, so should you.
mschuster91 4y ago
> No, they are called Nazis, when anyone with a even a shred of reason would conclude that Zionism is the very reincarnation of Nazism and is used to suit their own agenda and narrative. What? Israel doesn't run concentration camps, forced labor camps, or rounds up and executes Palestinians for being Palestinians. That comparison is not just factually wrong, it's one of the most morally despicable takes I have ever had the displeasure of reading here on HN.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > That comparison is not just factually wrong, it's one of the most morally despicable takes I have ever had the displeasure of reading here on HN. According to who, you? Have you actually looked at what and how Palestinian's are forced to live during occupation and then made worse after COVID? Here is an example of fored labour via poverty [0]: Construction and infrastructure projects in Israel, and in Israeli settlements within the West Bank, are hugely dependent upon Palestinian labor. Under a lockdown in a pandemic this means that Palestinian workers are exposed to serious health risks while helping Israel cement its control over Palestinian land and people. You want to see death squads in Palestine? But how about just watching illegal phosphorous munitions (a war crime) being used on Civilians [1]. You can also look into all of the atrocities of disproportionate violence against civilians by the Isreali military (which is to say the Israeli Citizens themselves since it's mandatory) from re-settlement on your own. Your selective biases and forced narrative work with those with woke political bends, that much is clear, but they fall under even the slightest amount of scrutiny for anyone who is willing to look. And before you resort to the absurd notions of antisemitism, I've been helping in Ukraine since the Maidan Revolution which has a large Jewish population, specifically in Lviv which is where I've spent the most time. This has nothing to do with antisemitism and everything to do with calling people who are driven by genocidal and ethnic cleansing ideology what they are: Israelis as a whole have become the very thing they supposedly detested and have behaved that way since the re-settlement after WWII. 0: https://merip.org/2020/05/palestinian-workers-in-israel-caught-between-indispensable-and-disposable/ https://merip.org/2020/05/palestinian-workers-in-israel-caug... 1: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/23/israel https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/23/israel

lazylion2 4y ago

"almost exactly the same situation" Did the Muslims in Xinjiang declare a war against China? did they blow up Chinese buses or shoot thousands of rockets at Chinese civilians ?

plankers 4y ago
uh yeah, kinda. the following is from 2011. >In recent years, ETIM has set up bases outside China to train terrorists and has dispatched its members to China to plot and execute terrorist acts including bombing buses, cinemas, department stores, markets and hotels. ETIM has also undertaken assassinations and arson attacks and has carried out terrorist attacks against Chinese targets abroad. Among the violent acts committed by ETIM members were the blowing up of the warehouse of the Urumqi Train Station on 23 May 1998, the armed looting of 247,000 RMB Yuan in Urumqi on 4 February 1999, an explosion in Hetian City, Xinjiang, on 25 March 1999 and violent resistance against arrest in Xinhe County, Xinjiang, on 18 June 1999. These incidents resulted in the deaths of 140 people and injuries to 371. https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/sanctions/1267/aq_sanctions_list/summaries/entity/eastern-turkistan-islamic-movement https://www.un.org/securitycouncil/sanctions/1267/aq_sanctio...
cies 4y ago
Indeed, only the actions of the oppressor are "almost exactly the same". The Uygars have so far been a lot more peaceful in their oppression. I also find that Israel is very good in presenting itself in the western MSM, while China seems to have the western MSM against it lately. That makes me also a bit more hesitant to accept the MSM's China critiques.
skitout 4y ago
There have been several (terrorist) attacks against Chinese civilians in Xinjiang over the years. The perpetrators have been lone wolfs, and people part of organized groups. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict Personally I think that attack on civilians cannot justify the actions of Chinese state or of the Israeli state (massive repression against civilians and continued colonization). And while I condemn both China and Israel for such actions, the two situation are very different.

dr_faustus 4y ago

Ok, so: Israel has currently ~4500 Palestinians detained = < 0.1% [1] China has about 1.8m Uygurs in internment camps = 14% [2] I would call that a far cry. Also, many other statistics of welfare, e.g. child mortality or GPD/capita in the West Bank and Gaza are about the same or better than in the neighboring countries (Jordan, Egypt). On the other hand, there seems to be quite substantial evidence for mass sterilizations and abortions forced on Uygurs in China. I have never heard of anything like that committed by Israel. Again, I do believe that there are overreaches and overreactions on the Israeli side to actions by the Palestinians and there are innocent lives lost on both sides. I really hope, that they at some point manage to either live together peacefully or agree on a two state solution. But there is a very substantial difference between that and the plight of the Uygurs. [1] https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/17/infographic-how-many-palestinians-are-imprisoned-by-israel https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/17/infographic-how-man... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Inside_internment_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide#Inside_internm...

akhmatova 4y ago
Israel has currently ~4500 Palestinians detained = < 0.1% [1] The entire West Bank and Gaza Strip are effectively a giant detention camp.

schnable 4y ago

Israel for all its faults vis-a-vis the Palestinians is not committing ethnic cleansing or anything close to it. People who claim genocide by the Israelis are either anti-semetic or basing their opinions on anti-semitic disinformation.