5 ms·

Though nothing would delight me more than to be able to hack my cars open-source firmware, I can't see that happening by a long shot. Security-by-obscurity is

by yuvadam 15y ago

Though nothing would delight me more than to be able to hack my cars open-source firmware, I can't see that happening by a long shot. Security-by-obscurity is still a - supposedly - valid claim nowadays.

pantaloons 15y ago
There's nothing that would delight me less than driving on the road with someone who has hacked their cars firmware. In any case this seems more like competitive advantage through obscurity than security through obscurity, for the same reason that manufacturers don't include blueprints and engine schematics.
- MoreMoschops 15y ago
  "There's nothing that would delight me less than driving on the road with someone who has hacked their cars firmware." Engine tuners already do this.
  - d99kris 15y ago
    Yes. And also developers/testers of other electronic control units in the vehicle. The early phase development is always in simulators and on test tracks, but typically car manufacturers have deals with the governments which allow them to drive on regular roads with systems under development. Of course, should something happen, there's a number to call to get towed away quickly.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    Only a very small part of the firmware, or more specifically, not really the firmware but just some chips that control the ignition timing and gas mixture. None of which puts other drivers at risk; at worst they blow up the engine of their own car (I don't know if that's possible with chip tuning, just saying). Many 'types' of car tuning that cause danger are already prohibited on most places. But if somebody could rewrite the firmware so that the car stereo controls all of a sudden are the only way to actuate the brakes, that could create very dangerous situations. Which I why I hope that there will remain strong regulations on what firmware people can load onto their cars, at least in as far as they use that car on public roads.
    - leviathant 15y ago
      Fairly recently, a box came out for the car I drive that lets you use the steering wheel volume controls to upshift and downshift. The same box has a trick that, under very controlled circumstances, allows you to lock only the front brakes (the car is RWD) until your speed is > 5mph. You have to be in fake-manual mode, set to 1st gear, with the brakes depressed, and the box enabled. Then you pull back on the cruise control stalk to engage the brakes. There's really no way to accidentally engage the mode, but yeah, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing you're worried about. Using the cruise control stalk to trick the car into thinking it hit a patch of ice, so it selectively engages the brakes. I should note that a) I don't do burnouts and would never use this option, and b) I believe you can enable/disable it via USB and the programming utility. Happy driving ;)
    - stevenrace 15y ago
      >> rewrite the firmware so that the car stereo controls all of a sudden are the only way to actuate the brakes Aside from some minor pulsing of the ABS module, it's a purely mechanical/hydraulic system. You push the pedal in, the master cylinder creates pressure in the line, and the brake caliper pistons get pushed out onto your brake rotors. On the other hand, as seen in the Pruis nonsense last year, an increasing number of cars do use a electronic throttle which can lead to some interesting failure conditions. The 'firmware' your discussing in your hypothetical situation is hacking the CANbus system - not the ECU firmware. One could, in todays systems, remap any CANbus device (even as odd as a headlight switch) to manipulate another CANbus device (such as the electronic throttle). Doing such nepharious things are possible today, but would take days worth of hacking and proprietary diagnostic hardware. ECU controls, on the other hand, have been reverse engineered in nearly all cars being actively tracked/raced today. Bosch (BMW/Porsche), GM PCMs, Honda/Acura, Mistubishi, etc can be modified to control timing/fuel...add additional I/O and features (such as traction control, launch control, antilag, etc ...even when not equipped by the OEM). Of my vehicles still running an OEM ECU, all have been running 'hacked' firmware without incident for nearly a decade. Even my ABS controller has been upgraded for better threshold braking performance. If you're intersted in such things, please check out EFIuniversity [0], Ostrich, and persuse Motec's manuals for an idea of what's possible. [0] www.efi101.com [1] http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=24 http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=24 [2] www.motec.com%2Ffiledownload.php%2FM4_M48_M8_Manual_A5.pdf
shabble 15y ago
Even with open source, I'd be doubtful (and concerned) were that an option. There's no reason you can't have open source code (available for public scrutiny/liability purposes), but require that on-road, cars require a particular signed variant. Sort of the anti-GPL3. Some sort of public bugtracker/remote update mechanism (again, given suitably authenticated binaries) would also be nice. Actually, it occurs to me from watching far too much Top-Gear, that a fair number of high-end cars have a "Sport" button that does all sorts of things to your ECU, brakes/suspension/steering controls, and (afaik) is strictly speaking only legal for off-public-road/private racetrack usage. Having something similar (and with a log of entry/exit times into each mode for use in crash investigation)[1] might make it possible to experiment. Still strikes me as pretty scary though. [1] And a flashing bright yellow tail-light. To make sure everyone else knows it as well :)
- robin_reala 15y ago
  The Nissan GT-R (in Japan at least) knows from the GPS where you are and only lets you engage sports mode at registered race tracks.
- haentz 15y ago
  > (afaik) is strictly speaking only legal for off-public-road/private racetrack usage No, it isn't…

by yuvadam 15y ago

pantaloons 15y ago

There's nothing that would delight me less than driving on the road with someone who has hacked their cars firmware. In any case this seems more like competitive advantage through obscurity than security through obscurity, for the same reason that manufacturers don't include blueprints and engine schematics.

MoreMoschops 15y ago
"There's nothing that would delight me less than driving on the road with someone who has hacked their cars firmware." Engine tuners already do this.
- d99kris 15y ago
  Yes. And also developers/testers of other electronic control units in the vehicle. The early phase development is always in simulators and on test tracks, but typically car manufacturers have deals with the governments which allow them to drive on regular roads with systems under development. Of course, should something happen, there's a number to call to get towed away quickly.
- roel_v 15y ago
  Only a very small part of the firmware, or more specifically, not really the firmware but just some chips that control the ignition timing and gas mixture. None of which puts other drivers at risk; at worst they blow up the engine of their own car (I don't know if that's possible with chip tuning, just saying). Many 'types' of car tuning that cause danger are already prohibited on most places. But if somebody could rewrite the firmware so that the car stereo controls all of a sudden are the only way to actuate the brakes, that could create very dangerous situations. Which I why I hope that there will remain strong regulations on what firmware people can load onto their cars, at least in as far as they use that car on public roads.
  - leviathant 15y ago
    Fairly recently, a box came out for the car I drive that lets you use the steering wheel volume controls to upshift and downshift. The same box has a trick that, under very controlled circumstances, allows you to lock only the front brakes (the car is RWD) until your speed is > 5mph. You have to be in fake-manual mode, set to 1st gear, with the brakes depressed, and the box enabled. Then you pull back on the cruise control stalk to engage the brakes. There's really no way to accidentally engage the mode, but yeah, that sounds exactly like the sort of thing you're worried about. Using the cruise control stalk to trick the car into thinking it hit a patch of ice, so it selectively engages the brakes. I should note that a) I don't do burnouts and would never use this option, and b) I believe you can enable/disable it via USB and the programming utility. Happy driving ;)
  - stevenrace 15y ago
    >> rewrite the firmware so that the car stereo controls all of a sudden are the only way to actuate the brakes Aside from some minor pulsing of the ABS module, it's a purely mechanical/hydraulic system. You push the pedal in, the master cylinder creates pressure in the line, and the brake caliper pistons get pushed out onto your brake rotors. On the other hand, as seen in the Pruis nonsense last year, an increasing number of cars do use a electronic throttle which can lead to some interesting failure conditions. The 'firmware' your discussing in your hypothetical situation is hacking the CANbus system - not the ECU firmware. One could, in todays systems, remap any CANbus device (even as odd as a headlight switch) to manipulate another CANbus device (such as the electronic throttle). Doing such nepharious things are possible today, but would take days worth of hacking and proprietary diagnostic hardware. ECU controls, on the other hand, have been reverse engineered in nearly all cars being actively tracked/raced today. Bosch (BMW/Porsche), GM PCMs, Honda/Acura, Mistubishi, etc can be modified to control timing/fuel...add additional I/O and features (such as traction control, launch control, antilag, etc ...even when not equipped by the OEM). Of my vehicles still running an OEM ECU, all have been running 'hacked' firmware without incident for nearly a decade. Even my ABS controller has been upgraded for better threshold braking performance. If you're intersted in such things, please check out EFIuniversity [0], Ostrich, and persuse Motec's manuals for an idea of what's possible. [0] www.efi101.com [1] http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=24 http://www.moates.net/documentation.php?documentation_id=24 [2] www.motec.com%2Ffiledownload.php%2FM4_M48_M8_Manual_A5.pdf

shabble 15y ago

Even with open source, I'd be doubtful (and concerned) were that an option. There's no reason you can't have open source code (available for public scrutiny/liability purposes), but require that on-road, cars require a particular signed variant. Sort of the anti-GPL3. Some sort of public bugtracker/remote update mechanism (again, given suitably authenticated binaries) would also be nice. Actually, it occurs to me from watching far too much Top-Gear, that a fair number of high-end cars have a "Sport" button that does all sorts of things to your ECU, brakes/suspension/steering controls, and (afaik) is strictly speaking only legal for off-public-road/private racetrack usage. Having something similar (and with a log of entry/exit times into each mode for use in crash investigation)[1] might make it possible to experiment. Still strikes me as pretty scary though. [1] And a flashing bright yellow tail-light. To make sure everyone else knows it as well :)

robin_reala 15y ago
The Nissan GT-R (in Japan at least) knows from the GPS where you are and only lets you engage sports mode at registered race tracks.
haentz 15y ago
> (afaik) is strictly speaking only legal for off-public-road/private racetrack usage No, it isn't…