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No, it is not the same at all because nobody has any idea what party/what person/what ideology the next EC leader will have. There is no citizen vote to form a

No, it is not the same at all because nobody has any idea what party/what person/what ideology the next EC leader will have. There is no citizen vote to form a parliament which then will vote for the EC leader. At all. Not even near. It has nothing to do with a representative parliament, really. We do not know who, why, from where the next EC leader will be. At all. At least when you vote for a party (in UK, Spain, whatever), you have some idea what person they will vote for Prime Minister. Nothing of the sort in the EC.

gambiting 4y ago
But EU citizens do vote for an EU parliment - sure, they don't vote for the European Comission, but again, there are all kinds of comissions operating alongside all EU governments, and those are practically never elected democratically. They either form by the institutions that need them, or the government picks them arbitrarily. And anything the EC proposes has to go through the EU parliment to be approved - so in the end your representatives who were democratically elected have a say. EC only proposes laws, it doesn't pass them. Again, such mechanism exists in nearly all EU countries - you have comissions proposing laws, then parliments pass(or reject) them. The comissions don't need to be voted in by the populace, because the final say is given to people who were voted in.
- pfortuny 4y ago
  No no no no no no no...!!!! That is the trick of the name. The European Commission "sounds" as the "Commission for highways" in the, say Ministry for the Interior. But it has nothing to do with that AT ALL. It is the main government branch of the EU, the "executive". Despite its name. The parliament is just the "legislative". That is the trick they played on us. And, honestly, part of what made British brexiters mad at Europe (not trying to be on either side, hey).
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    I still do not understand your point. As stated earlier, in parliamentary republics the government is never elected and while it is often made mostly by members of the winning party, it is not necessarily so (often being member of the parliament is not even required). In the case of the EU the government is usually (always?) composed by members of the winning EU party, which are politically aligned coalitions of national parties.
    - mcv 4y ago
      In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of the EP, but by backroom negotiations between the national governments, each of which is really a coalition of parties, the largest of which generally has a prominent party member that they want to push forward as their country's candidate for the EC. It is significantly less direct than in a normal parliamentary democracy. It's more like your national government would be formed by all mayors pushing forward a former city councillor from their party to form the national government. [0] Not just republics, also constitutional monarchies
      - gpderetta 4y ago
        But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]
        arlort 4y ago
        I'm also italian Turns out our system, while based on the same basic principles evolved in a very different way from the UK/Germany etc For the UK the main difference is that most of their governments are majority governments, due to their electoral system either labour or the tories are going to have (in 90% of cases) an outright majority, so the government (at least the PM) is going to be pretty much known as soon as the election is over In germany/the netherlands they have more often coalitions so you don't know until after the parties have negotiated post-election. This is closer to what we have in italy, however there are two differences: 1. There are strong conventions about the larger party taking the head of government position, something like what happened with the Conte I government where two parties agreed on a government but had to bring in a "neutral" PM does not happen abroad 2. Governments are more likely to last the length of the mandate, specifically it's quite rare to have governments fall and bring in a "governo tecnico" headed by a neutral PM So turns out that other countries are much less used to have the PM be someone that hasn't campaigned at all A third difference, in which italy is quite unique amongst parliamentary systems, is that both chambers have to give their confidence, almost everywhere else it's just the lower house, while in italy also the Senate must agree to a government. This is similar to how the European Council also has to agree on the EU commission members but very unlike other countries, where the upper houses are at worst symbolical and at best very constrained in their powers

gambiting 4y ago

But EU citizens do vote for an EU parliment - sure, they don't vote for the European Comission, but again, there are all kinds of comissions operating alongside all EU governments, and those are practically never elected democratically. They either form by the institutions that need them, or the government picks them arbitrarily. And anything the EC proposes has to go through the EU parliment to be approved - so in the end your representatives who were democratically elected have a say. EC only proposes laws, it doesn't pass them. Again, such mechanism exists in nearly all EU countries - you have comissions proposing laws, then parliments pass(or reject) them. The comissions don't need to be voted in by the populace, because the final say is given to people who were voted in.

pfortuny 4y ago
No no no no no no no...!!!! That is the trick of the name. The European Commission "sounds" as the "Commission for highways" in the, say Ministry for the Interior. But it has nothing to do with that AT ALL. It is the main government branch of the EU, the "executive". Despite its name. The parliament is just the "legislative". That is the trick they played on us. And, honestly, part of what made British brexiters mad at Europe (not trying to be on either side, hey).
- gpderetta 4y ago
  I still do not understand your point. As stated earlier, in parliamentary republics the government is never elected and while it is often made mostly by members of the winning party, it is not necessarily so (often being member of the parliament is not even required). In the case of the EU the government is usually (always?) composed by members of the winning EU party, which are politically aligned coalitions of national parties.
  - mcv 4y ago
    In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of the EP, but by backroom negotiations between the national governments, each of which is really a coalition of parties, the largest of which generally has a prominent party member that they want to push forward as their country's candidate for the EC. It is significantly less direct than in a normal parliamentary democracy. It's more like your national government would be formed by all mayors pushing forward a former city councillor from their party to form the national government. [0] Not just republics, also constitutional monarchies
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]
      - arlort 4y ago
        I'm also italian Turns out our system, while based on the same basic principles evolved in a very different way from the UK/Germany etc For the UK the main difference is that most of their governments are majority governments, due to their electoral system either labour or the tories are going to have (in 90% of cases) an outright majority, so the government (at least the PM) is going to be pretty much known as soon as the election is over In germany/the netherlands they have more often coalitions so you don't know until after the parties have negotiated post-election. This is closer to what we have in italy, however there are two differences: 1. There are strong conventions about the larger party taking the head of government position, something like what happened with the Conte I government where two parties agreed on a government but had to bring in a "neutral" PM does not happen abroad 2. Governments are more likely to last the length of the mandate, specifically it's quite rare to have governments fall and bring in a "governo tecnico" headed by a neutral PM So turns out that other countries are much less used to have the PM be someone that hasn't campaigned at all A third difference, in which italy is quite unique amongst parliamentary systems, is that both chambers have to give their confidence, almost everywhere else it's just the lower house, while in italy also the Senate must agree to a government. This is similar to how the European Council also has to agree on the EU commission members but very unlike other countries, where the upper houses are at worst symbolical and at best very constrained in their powers