4 ms·

>>Well, the position she holds is not democratically elected, she is a representative of representatives, so we (the EU citizens) have to bear with her (and any

>>Well, the position she holds is not democratically elected, she is a representative of representatives, so we (the EU citizens) have to bear with her (and any other EC leader) for 6 years just because our "governments" chose her. So would you say that for example....prime minister of UK is not democratically elected? After all, you never vote for them - you vote for the party in parlimentary elections, then the party selects a representative to be the prime minister. How is that different?

pfortuny 4y ago
No, it is not the same at all because nobody has any idea what party/what person/what ideology the next EC leader will have. There is no citizen vote to form a parliament which then will vote for the EC leader. At all. Not even near. It has nothing to do with a representative parliament, really. We do not know who, why, from where the next EC leader will be. At all. At least when you vote for a party (in UK, Spain, whatever), you have some idea what person they will vote for Prime Minister. Nothing of the sort in the EC.
- gambiting 4y ago
  But EU citizens do vote for an EU parliment - sure, they don't vote for the European Comission, but again, there are all kinds of comissions operating alongside all EU governments, and those are practically never elected democratically. They either form by the institutions that need them, or the government picks them arbitrarily. And anything the EC proposes has to go through the EU parliment to be approved - so in the end your representatives who were democratically elected have a say. EC only proposes laws, it doesn't pass them. Again, such mechanism exists in nearly all EU countries - you have comissions proposing laws, then parliments pass(or reject) them. The comissions don't need to be voted in by the populace, because the final say is given to people who were voted in.
  - pfortuny 4y ago
    No no no no no no no...!!!! That is the trick of the name. The European Commission "sounds" as the "Commission for highways" in the, say Ministry for the Interior. But it has nothing to do with that AT ALL. It is the main government branch of the EU, the "executive". Despite its name. The parliament is just the "legislative". That is the trick they played on us. And, honestly, part of what made British brexiters mad at Europe (not trying to be on either side, hey).
    - gpderetta 4y ago
      I still do not understand your point. As stated earlier, in parliamentary republics the government is never elected and while it is often made mostly by members of the winning party, it is not necessarily so (often being member of the parliament is not even required). In the case of the EU the government is usually (always?) composed by members of the winning EU party, which are politically aligned coalitions of national parties.
      - mcv 4y ago
        In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of the EP, but by backroom negotiations between the national governments, each of which is really a coalition of parties, the largest of which generally has a prominent party member that they want to push forward as their country's candidate for the EC. It is significantly less direct than in a normal parliamentary democracy. It's more like your national government would be formed by all mayors pushing forward a former city councillor from their party to form the national government. [0] Not just republics, also constitutional monarchies
        gpderetta 4y ago
        But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]
blibble 4y ago
in the last election they had a load of debates all around Europe with the prospective leaders of the commission, with what their plans for their term were, what they wanted to achieve, etc guess who ended up being appointed leader? someone who didn't take part and wasn't even part of the process it's a complete farce, and the powerless parliament is only there to give the entire the thing the appearance of being democratic
- gambiting 4y ago
  >> and the powerless parliament is only there to give the entire the thing the appearance of being democratic What makes you say it's powerless? I'm genuienly curious. In my opinion it's the comission that is completely powerless - it can't do anything without the parliment agreeing, and the parliment is under no obligation to agree with them.
  - blibble 4y ago
    it's the only legislature in the world that can't legislate
    - gambiting 4y ago
      Well that's a contradiction - if it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? If you mean that the "laws"(they aren't laws technically) don't apply anywhere until actually accepted and adopted by the EU member states - then yes, that's very much by design.
      - blibble 4y ago
        > Well that's a contradiction - if it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? yes, that's the point
      - zajio1am 4y ago
        > If it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? The EU parliament votes on new EU 'laws' as a part of ordinary legislative procedure. It can reject laws or amend them. But contrast to national parliaments, it cannot propose new laws. The truth is that even on national level, most laws are proposed to parliament by government, not by MPs. > If you mean that the "laws"(they aren't laws technically) don't apply anywhere until actually accepted and adopted by the EU member states - then yes, that's very much by design. That is not true, there are directives and regulations (as EU 'laws'). Regulations apply directly, without any adoption by members states. Directives have to be adopted, but member states are required to adopt them and in some border cases they apply even if not adopted.
mike_hearn 4y ago
Actually the Prime Minister got in by winning a vote, twice! 1. He had to get elected MP in his constituency. 2. He had to win a vote by the Conservative party membership (anyone can become a member). Both the big parties in the UK have some degree of internal democracy for choosing their next leaders. It's true that it's not a presidential system, but it's not comparable to the Commission where the commissioners haven't won any votes ever (the GP post sort of implies there's a vote amongst national leaders but we honestly have no idea how vDL was selected - maybe there was no vote at all and it was all some sort of stitch-up).
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>Both the big parties in the UK have some degree of internal democracy for choosing their next leaders. It is also my understanding that it's purely because they chose to do that. They only need to name a prime minister, how they decide on one isn't defined by law. >>He had to win a vote by the Conservative party membership (anyone can become a member). Again, the point is that the PM is chosen not by the general populace, they are selected within the winning party. >>but it's not comparable to the Commission where the commissioners haven't won any votes ever The commission is comparable to the House of Lords at best, where the people aren't elected either - both of them only advise the parliment though, neither the EC nor the house of lords can pass any laws by themselves. That's why it's "allowed" - the Comission has no real power because it relies on Parliment(which is democratically elected) to make the final decisions.
  - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
    >> Again, the point is that the PM is chosen not by the general populace, they are selected within the winning party. This is sort of true but misleading, the PM is the leader of the winning party, and the leader is always chosen before an election, so the electorate know exactly who will be PM when they vote.
    - ben_w 4y ago
      Except when the leader gets kicked out (or resigns) part way though their term, as happened to Thatcher, Blair[0], Cameron, and May. [0] although I’ll accept he doesn’t really count because both he and the Conservative party explicitly said prior to that election that if you vote for Blair you’ll get Brown soon after.
raxxorraxor 4y ago
The level of indirectness is relevant and you do not participate in election in every EU country.
- ben_w 4y ago
  I also didn’t participate in an election in every UK parliamentary constituency when I still lived there. I’ll be happy to say the UK also doesn’t count as a “proper democracy”, but counting it as more democratic than the EU feels like arguments-as-soldiers. My personal take is that the EU is a trade agreement that, unlike most trade agreements, has at least a modicum of democratic accountability. But the foundation of its democratic nature is the member states within the EU rather than the supernational coordination organisation itself, which is precisely as democratic as its members want it to be and no more nor less than that.

pfortuny 4y ago

No, it is not the same at all because nobody has any idea what party/what person/what ideology the next EC leader will have. There is no citizen vote to form a parliament which then will vote for the EC leader. At all. Not even near. It has nothing to do with a representative parliament, really. We do not know who, why, from where the next EC leader will be. At all. At least when you vote for a party (in UK, Spain, whatever), you have some idea what person they will vote for Prime Minister. Nothing of the sort in the EC.

gambiting 4y ago
But EU citizens do vote for an EU parliment - sure, they don't vote for the European Comission, but again, there are all kinds of comissions operating alongside all EU governments, and those are practically never elected democratically. They either form by the institutions that need them, or the government picks them arbitrarily. And anything the EC proposes has to go through the EU parliment to be approved - so in the end your representatives who were democratically elected have a say. EC only proposes laws, it doesn't pass them. Again, such mechanism exists in nearly all EU countries - you have comissions proposing laws, then parliments pass(or reject) them. The comissions don't need to be voted in by the populace, because the final say is given to people who were voted in.
- pfortuny 4y ago
  No no no no no no no...!!!! That is the trick of the name. The European Commission "sounds" as the "Commission for highways" in the, say Ministry for the Interior. But it has nothing to do with that AT ALL. It is the main government branch of the EU, the "executive". Despite its name. The parliament is just the "legislative". That is the trick they played on us. And, honestly, part of what made British brexiters mad at Europe (not trying to be on either side, hey).
  - gpderetta 4y ago
    I still do not understand your point. As stated earlier, in parliamentary republics the government is never elected and while it is often made mostly by members of the winning party, it is not necessarily so (often being member of the parliament is not even required). In the case of the EU the government is usually (always?) composed by members of the winning EU party, which are politically aligned coalitions of national parties.
    - mcv 4y ago
      In parliamentary democracies[0], the government is formed by a majority of the elected parties in parliament. In the EU, the EC is not formed by a majority of the EP, but by backroom negotiations between the national governments, each of which is really a coalition of parties, the largest of which generally has a prominent party member that they want to push forward as their country's candidate for the EC. It is significantly less direct than in a normal parliamentary democracy. It's more like your national government would be formed by all mayors pushing forward a former city councillor from their party to form the national government. [0] Not just republics, also constitutional monarchies
      - gpderetta 4y ago
        But even local governments are always made by backroom negotiations, I really don't see the difference. [I'm used to Italian politics, but I get the feeling that UK is pretty much the same]

blibble 4y ago

in the last election they had a load of debates all around Europe with the prospective leaders of the commission, with what their plans for their term were, what they wanted to achieve, etc guess who ended up being appointed leader? someone who didn't take part and wasn't even part of the process it's a complete farce, and the powerless parliament is only there to give the entire the thing the appearance of being democratic

gambiting 4y ago
>> and the powerless parliament is only there to give the entire the thing the appearance of being democratic What makes you say it's powerless? I'm genuienly curious. In my opinion it's the comission that is completely powerless - it can't do anything without the parliment agreeing, and the parliment is under no obligation to agree with them.
- blibble 4y ago
  it's the only legislature in the world that can't legislate
  - gambiting 4y ago
    Well that's a contradiction - if it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? If you mean that the "laws"(they aren't laws technically) don't apply anywhere until actually accepted and adopted by the EU member states - then yes, that's very much by design.
    - blibble 4y ago
      > Well that's a contradiction - if it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? yes, that's the point
    - zajio1am 4y ago
      > If it can't legislate, then it's not a legislature, is it? The EU parliament votes on new EU 'laws' as a part of ordinary legislative procedure. It can reject laws or amend them. But contrast to national parliaments, it cannot propose new laws. The truth is that even on national level, most laws are proposed to parliament by government, not by MPs. > If you mean that the "laws"(they aren't laws technically) don't apply anywhere until actually accepted and adopted by the EU member states - then yes, that's very much by design. That is not true, there are directives and regulations (as EU 'laws'). Regulations apply directly, without any adoption by members states. Directives have to be adopted, but member states are required to adopt them and in some border cases they apply even if not adopted.

mike_hearn 4y ago

Actually the Prime Minister got in by winning a vote, twice! 1. He had to get elected MP in his constituency. 2. He had to win a vote by the Conservative party membership (anyone can become a member). Both the big parties in the UK have some degree of internal democracy for choosing their next leaders. It's true that it's not a presidential system, but it's not comparable to the Commission where the commissioners haven't won any votes ever (the GP post sort of implies there's a vote amongst national leaders but we honestly have no idea how vDL was selected - maybe there was no vote at all and it was all some sort of stitch-up).

gambiting 4y ago
>>Both the big parties in the UK have some degree of internal democracy for choosing their next leaders. It is also my understanding that it's purely because they chose to do that. They only need to name a prime minister, how they decide on one isn't defined by law. >>He had to win a vote by the Conservative party membership (anyone can become a member). Again, the point is that the PM is chosen not by the general populace, they are selected within the winning party. >>but it's not comparable to the Commission where the commissioners haven't won any votes ever The commission is comparable to the House of Lords at best, where the people aren't elected either - both of them only advise the parliment though, neither the EC nor the house of lords can pass any laws by themselves. That's why it's "allowed" - the Comission has no real power because it relies on Parliment(which is democratically elected) to make the final decisions.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 4y ago
  >> Again, the point is that the PM is chosen not by the general populace, they are selected within the winning party. This is sort of true but misleading, the PM is the leader of the winning party, and the leader is always chosen before an election, so the electorate know exactly who will be PM when they vote.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Except when the leader gets kicked out (or resigns) part way though their term, as happened to Thatcher, Blair[0], Cameron, and May. [0] although I’ll accept he doesn’t really count because both he and the Conservative party explicitly said prior to that election that if you vote for Blair you’ll get Brown soon after.

raxxorraxor 4y ago

The level of indirectness is relevant and you do not participate in election in every EU country.

ben_w 4y ago
I also didn’t participate in an election in every UK parliamentary constituency when I still lived there. I’ll be happy to say the UK also doesn’t count as a “proper democracy”, but counting it as more democratic than the EU feels like arguments-as-soldiers. My personal take is that the EU is a trade agreement that, unlike most trade agreements, has at least a modicum of democratic accountability. But the foundation of its democratic nature is the member states within the EU rather than the supernational coordination organisation itself, which is precisely as democratic as its members want it to be and no more nor less than that.