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I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspec

I also find that interesting in contrast to the constant outrage about the situation of Palestinians in Israel which certainly has many highly problematic aspects but to me still seems to be a far cry from the situation of Muslims in China or the treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia. It seems to be quite hypocritical by the governments of Muslim countries.

thriftwy 4y ago
- Paradigma11 4y ago
  You bomb, torture and kill them till you get a dictatorial regime that is subservient to you?
  - thriftwy 4y ago
    You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. That seems to be a very high bar if we compare it with USA/NATO/EU/Chinese endeavours in any of Muslim regions. The grandparent made it sound like the devastation were ongoing, which it's not. Stopping the violence is a good thing. If you don't acknowledge it, you can't even tell failure from success and all of your (Xinjiang and otherwise) efforts would be misguided.
    - Jataman606 4y ago
      Russia started war in Chechnya (first indirectly by arming opposition, then by literally starting war). Spinning it to say that they tried to win the war to turn Chechnya to peaceful region is very disingenuous.
    - watwut 4y ago
      > You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. Not starting that war in the first place would be even better. > Stopping the violence is a good thing. Not committing it in the first place is even better.
      - thriftwy 4y ago
        It is a region of Russia and it is practically landlocked from all sides by other Russia, and also it seems to have started the war by attacking Dagestan (also in Russia). So even comparing it to Xinjiang, which China could plausible give away, Russia could not get rid of Chechnya even of it wanted. What other outcome would you expect? But, that has ended 15 years ago, by now.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        Give away? Give to who? What are you talking about? You're pivoting constantly and not defending your arguments. Why should anyone take your own words more seriously than you do?
        thriftwy 4y ago
        I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you are a much worse perpetrator yourself.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him. You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.
femiagbabiaka 4y ago
It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT: Wow, actually more than a decade now since the original BDS statement.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - IntrepidWorm 4y ago
    Calling Zionism equivalent to Nazism seems to be an overgeneralization. It would be better served to point out the similarities of both movements as overtly nationalistic, militant, and carried strongly by an undercurrent of racism. Furthermore, the current definition of Nazi is shifting away from that of the political party of the 30's and 40's and blending with a multitude of other racist and nationistic sentiments. The persecution of an ethnic group towards the annihilation of their identity and way of life is inherently genocidal, but genocide predates Nazism and Zionism by millennia.
  - simonh 4y ago
    The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states. Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.
ookdatnog 4y ago
I think that's adequately explained by the fact that, unlike China, Israel is considered an ally in the west. That means we are in some way more responsible for the actions of Israel than the actions of China, as continued support implies agreement with those actions, to some extent.
- IntrepidWorm 4y ago
  Yes - the US and many other western nations have propped up Israel, in many ways enabling the continued aggression towards Palestine, though much of the west has an economic incentive to continue turning a blind eye towards the ongoing persecution of the Uyghur population. We are not blameless in their struggle.
thaumasiotes 4y ago
> the situation of Muslims in China Here's your problem; trying to talk about "the situation of Muslims in China" is incoherent. Islam has been an accepted (though small) part of Chinese culture for many centuries, and it still is. The Uyghurs are highly atypical Muslims in China who don't speak Chinese and don't participate in Chinese culture, instead preferring their own rival culture. That (and rebelliousness) is why they're oppressed. Uyghurs have problems in China. Muslims don't, except to the extent that negative views of the Uyghurs start bleeding over into negative views of Muslims generally (which is indeed happening). I've been confused for years about why the Western press seems so determined to demonstrate that it has no idea what it's talking about by representing oppression of Uyghurs as "oppressing people because of their religion". The case just can't be made. It would be trivial to call it "oppressing people because of their race"; that case is easy to make. But I guess the Western audience wouldn't see race-based oppression as being all that villainous?
- IntrepidWorm 4y ago
  US media has a long history of conflating race, religion, and socioeconomic class, in part due to the tangled nature of the 'States own biases and prejudice.
- free-malloc 4y ago
  I think this is nearly entirely wrong. It's entirely about power and god. Xi Jinping has cracked down on Christianity shutting down many churches. China has other ethnicities besides the Han, which don't speak Mandarin. If the Uyghurs had no faith they would be safe. There is little room for religion unless the religion is centralized and submissive to the state. In some sense religion undermines the state.
  - Melting_Harps 4y ago
    > In some sense religion undermines the state. In the 21st century, especially under the CCP, they're just competing forces more than direct adversaries, they both strive to do the same thing. And for most of History, the Church was the State. It's parallels are quite visible, and now most wars are fought not for the deliberate imposition of deities, but rather for the new pantheon of self-declared god's: political leaders.
rayiner 4y ago
In my experience the constant outrage over Palestine is driven more by hatred of Israel than concern about Palestinians. Antisemitism is universal in the Muslim world,[1] not so with anti-Sino sentiment. Note that the wealthy Arab states surrounding Palestine aren’t leaping to admit refugees from Palestine. [1] I think my home country of Bangladesh is thousands of miles away from any significant population of Jews. Yet the casual antisemitism is off the charts. EDIT: Got some anonymous hate mail from a BDS saying “the tide is turning” and threatening me for my support of the “apartheid state Israel.” Sorry for exposing the things folks say “just between us.”
- DoughnutHole 4y ago
  Well the wealthy Arab states aren't the ones surrounding Palestine - the poor countries that do surround Palestine have taken in an enormous number of refugees - there are 2 million Palestinians in Jordan, nearly as many as there are in Palestine, the vast majority of which descend from those that fled Palestine between '47 and '67. Of the states actually bordering Israel and Palestine, Egypt is really the only one that hasn't pulled its weight. The sabre rattling by the gulf states is 100% motivated by distracting their people with rage rather than by actual concern for Palestinians - but don't let that distract you from the fact that the states on Palestine's doorstep have genuinely dealt with their share of the human tragedy caused by the conflict. Close to a quarter of Jordan's citizens are now Palestinians, and the intake of refugees in Lebanon even triggered a 15 year civil war when the delicate Christian-Muslim political balance in the country was disrupted.
  - slibhb 4y ago
    Before 1967, Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. They administrated those territories in a far worse manner than the Israelis currently do. The relationship between Egypt and especially Jordan and the Palestinians is extremely complicated. Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
    - skitout 4y ago
wutbrodo 4y ago
Is this surprising? Polities care about things happening in their backyard, and societies' goals tend to be much more pragmatic than what it says on the tin. The Palestinian situation is happening in their backyard, with people whose history is intertwined with theirs, and a refugee situation that affects them directly. There's not a country in the world that doesn't ultimately prioritize geopolitical concerns and a heaping dose of "people who look like me" prioritization. For example, it's not "surprising hypocrisy" that Israel has a problem with racism towards some Jewish ethnic groups (Mizrahi, Ethiopian), despite Israel's supposedly deeply-held identity as a homeland where all Jews are welcome. Note that this isn't a criticism of Israel! Just an acknowledgement that everywhere, people are people, and most people happen to be monsters. The fact that Arab countries care more about Arabs than a Muslim group halfway across the world seems almost tautological to me.

thriftwy 4y ago

Paradigma11 4y ago
You bomb, torture and kill them till you get a dictatorial regime that is subservient to you?
- thriftwy 4y ago
  You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. That seems to be a very high bar if we compare it with USA/NATO/EU/Chinese endeavours in any of Muslim regions. The grandparent made it sound like the devastation were ongoing, which it's not. Stopping the violence is a good thing. If you don't acknowledge it, you can't even tell failure from success and all of your (Xinjiang and otherwise) efforts would be misguided.
  - Jataman606 4y ago
    Russia started war in Chechnya (first indirectly by arming opposition, then by literally starting war). Spinning it to say that they tried to win the war to turn Chechnya to peaceful region is very disingenuous.
  - watwut 4y ago
    > You win a war to get a stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works and turn a warzone into a reasonably peaceful region. Not starting that war in the first place would be even better. > Stopping the violence is a good thing. Not committing it in the first place is even better.
    - thriftwy 4y ago
      It is a region of Russia and it is practically landlocked from all sides by other Russia, and also it seems to have started the war by attacking Dagestan (also in Russia). So even comparing it to Xinjiang, which China could plausible give away, Russia could not get rid of Chechnya even of it wanted. What other outcome would you expect? But, that has ended 15 years ago, by now.
      - Sporktacular 4y ago
        Give away? Give to who? What are you talking about? You're pivoting constantly and not defending your arguments. Why should anyone take your own words more seriously than you do?
        thriftwy 4y ago
        I am defending my arguments. "treatment of the predominantly Muslim Chechnians by Russia" is pure BS FUD accusations. Chechens are mostly treating themselves in the last 15 years. And it turns out relatively benign, compared to stuff like ISIS, Afghanistan, Xinjiang, Lybia, Israel, Yemen. And that's the context of early XXI century, there's really no other one. You're not the World Police to judge others, likely you are a much worse perpetrator yourself.
        Sporktacular 4y ago
        You said Russia fought for a "stable Chechen political regime that sort-of works". Jataman606 says it's disingenuous to suggest that - and you just let it go. And he's right. Grozny was demolished, no civil society left, horrendous human rights violations, no justice for survivors, just appeals to the corrupt, absolute power of Kadyrov. To say that sort-of-works is disingenuous and lets Russia off the hook for its part in backing him. You don't have to be the world police to condemn atrocities. Just like you don't have to defend Russia in order to criticise other powers.

femiagbabiaka 4y ago

It is not a far cry, it is in fact almost exactly the same situation, although to my knowledge the crimes of Israel are much more well documented by many sources. Also note that it has taken almost a decade to get to this level of awareness and still to this day Israel critics are called anti-semites and worse. Hopefully more widespread awareness and outrage about the treatment of Muslims in Xinjiang comes soon. EDIT: Wow, actually more than a decade now since the original BDS statement.

Melting_Harps 4y ago
[flagged]
- IntrepidWorm 4y ago
  Calling Zionism equivalent to Nazism seems to be an overgeneralization. It would be better served to point out the similarities of both movements as overtly nationalistic, militant, and carried strongly by an undercurrent of racism. Furthermore, the current definition of Nazi is shifting away from that of the political party of the 30's and 40's and blending with a multitude of other racist and nationistic sentiments. The persecution of an ethnic group towards the annihilation of their identity and way of life is inherently genocidal, but genocide predates Nazism and Zionism by millennia.
- simonh 4y ago
  The international community looks at Israel and sees Arab citizens, Arab judges including on the supreme court, the 14 current elected Arab members of the Knesset. They look at the ancient, vibrant jewish communities that have historically been well integrated across the predominantly Arab nations of the Middle East for thousands of years and... Sorry, who are the Nazis? I'm in no way trying to justify everything done by the Jewish state, the persistent harassment of Palestinians and encroachments in the West bank are deplorable. However equating that to naziism, while glossing over the utter apocalyptic devastation visited on Jewish communities all over the region is frankly revolting. Neither side in that conflict has come out of it looking good. Yes extremist zionists are some of the worst of the worst, but equivalent extremism on this issue is utterly normalised in the Muslim world and is in fact the national policy of many Muslim states. Meanwhile China gets an unconditional free pass because money.

ookdatnog 4y ago

I think that's adequately explained by the fact that, unlike China, Israel is considered an ally in the west. That means we are in some way more responsible for the actions of Israel than the actions of China, as continued support implies agreement with those actions, to some extent.

IntrepidWorm 4y ago
Yes - the US and many other western nations have propped up Israel, in many ways enabling the continued aggression towards Palestine, though much of the west has an economic incentive to continue turning a blind eye towards the ongoing persecution of the Uyghur population. We are not blameless in their struggle.

thaumasiotes 4y ago

> the situation of Muslims in China Here's your problem; trying to talk about "the situation of Muslims in China" is incoherent. Islam has been an accepted (though small) part of Chinese culture for many centuries, and it still is. The Uyghurs are highly atypical Muslims in China who don't speak Chinese and don't participate in Chinese culture, instead preferring their own rival culture. That (and rebelliousness) is why they're oppressed. Uyghurs have problems in China. Muslims don't, except to the extent that negative views of the Uyghurs start bleeding over into negative views of Muslims generally (which is indeed happening). I've been confused for years about why the Western press seems so determined to demonstrate that it has no idea what it's talking about by representing oppression of Uyghurs as "oppressing people because of their religion". The case just can't be made. It would be trivial to call it "oppressing people because of their race"; that case is easy to make. But I guess the Western audience wouldn't see race-based oppression as being all that villainous?

IntrepidWorm 4y ago
US media has a long history of conflating race, religion, and socioeconomic class, in part due to the tangled nature of the 'States own biases and prejudice.
free-malloc 4y ago
I think this is nearly entirely wrong. It's entirely about power and god. Xi Jinping has cracked down on Christianity shutting down many churches. China has other ethnicities besides the Han, which don't speak Mandarin. If the Uyghurs had no faith they would be safe. There is little room for religion unless the religion is centralized and submissive to the state. In some sense religion undermines the state.
- Melting_Harps 4y ago
  > In some sense religion undermines the state. In the 21st century, especially under the CCP, they're just competing forces more than direct adversaries, they both strive to do the same thing. And for most of History, the Church was the State. It's parallels are quite visible, and now most wars are fought not for the deliberate imposition of deities, but rather for the new pantheon of self-declared god's: political leaders.

rayiner 4y ago

In my experience the constant outrage over Palestine is driven more by hatred of Israel than concern about Palestinians. Antisemitism is universal in the Muslim world,[1] not so with anti-Sino sentiment. Note that the wealthy Arab states surrounding Palestine aren’t leaping to admit refugees from Palestine. [1] I think my home country of Bangladesh is thousands of miles away from any significant population of Jews. Yet the casual antisemitism is off the charts. EDIT: Got some anonymous hate mail from a BDS saying “the tide is turning” and threatening me for my support of the “apartheid state Israel.” Sorry for exposing the things folks say “just between us.”

DoughnutHole 4y ago
Well the wealthy Arab states aren't the ones surrounding Palestine - the poor countries that do surround Palestine have taken in an enormous number of refugees - there are 2 million Palestinians in Jordan, nearly as many as there are in Palestine, the vast majority of which descend from those that fled Palestine between '47 and '67. Of the states actually bordering Israel and Palestine, Egypt is really the only one that hasn't pulled its weight. The sabre rattling by the gulf states is 100% motivated by distracting their people with rage rather than by actual concern for Palestinians - but don't let that distract you from the fact that the states on Palestine's doorstep have genuinely dealt with their share of the human tragedy caused by the conflict. Close to a quarter of Jordan's citizens are now Palestinians, and the intake of refugees in Lebanon even triggered a 15 year civil war when the delicate Christian-Muslim political balance in the country was disrupted.
- slibhb 4y ago
  Before 1967, Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. They administrated those territories in a far worse manner than the Israelis currently do. The relationship between Egypt and especially Jordan and the Palestinians is extremely complicated. Consider https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
  - skitout 4y ago

wutbrodo 4y ago

Is this surprising? Polities care about things happening in their backyard, and societies' goals tend to be much more pragmatic than what it says on the tin. The Palestinian situation is happening in their backyard, with people whose history is intertwined with theirs, and a refugee situation that affects them directly. There's not a country in the world that doesn't ultimately prioritize geopolitical concerns and a heaping dose of "people who look like me" prioritization. For example, it's not "surprising hypocrisy" that Israel has a problem with racism towards some Jewish ethnic groups (Mizrahi, Ethiopian), despite Israel's supposedly deeply-held identity as a homeland where all Jews are welcome. Note that this isn't a criticism of Israel! Just an acknowledgement that everywhere, people are people, and most people happen to be monsters. The fact that Arab countries care more about Arabs than a Muslim group halfway across the world seems almost tautological to me.