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I just want to point out that lots of the sexual abuse of children are by the child's parent(s) (mostly the father, obviously). This is something that is not ta

I just want to point out that lots of the sexual abuse of children are by the child's parent(s) (mostly the father, obviously). This is something that is not taken into account and for which any "communication surveillance" policy is useless. But nobody tries to assess this because, yes, the aim is not the children. It is power.

teddyh 4y ago
> mostly the father, obviously Why is that obvious?
- pfortuny 4y ago
  From a historical point of view, and because males have less control over their sexual behaviour. I was distinguishing between father and mother, should have said so. I was not referring to relatives living out of home, as they would need some form of communication to set up their encounters, probably.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_other 4y ago
    I'd argue the abusers have more control over their behaviour, not less. They have chosen to act this way because they fear no reprisal.
    - pfortuny 4y ago
      No, that is not the definition of control, sorry. I am not trying to downplay their responsibility, honestly, I am just trying to speak properly. And that is just a biological fact.
      - smolder 4y ago
        This "biological fact" about men having less control over their sexual behavior is new to me. I hate to do the "citation needed" thing, but where are you getting this from? What's the empirical evidence? Do you mean because women pick their mates or something like that? The males have to attract them with displays of plumage?
        consp 4y ago
        I agree with your citation needed. There are many culture which wave away responsibility of men for choosing their actions since it "is in their nature". My guess is that it's modeled behavior by the society they live in (and thus can be changed) but I have no sources.
    - concordDance 4y ago
      Does a male have a higher sex drive? Are they more likely to rape? If yes, then women have, in the aggregate, more control over their sexual behaviour than men. And thus men have less control. This does not necesarily imply anything about what the punishment for rape or assault should be. Note: I am eliding a lot of what the definition of a person is (e.g. everything contained in their skin? Just concious processes? Some form of "natural" baseline that excludes tumors/drugs/etc?) in the above so YMMV. I recommend using "I agree with the denotation but disagree with connotation/affect" for situations like replying to the grandparent post.
      - mygoodaccount 4y ago
        >Does a male have a higher sex drive? Yes. Sex drive has a lot to do with T levels. Woman's sex drive is at her highest when her T is highest (ovulating). >More likely to rape Yes. Rape requires physicality. Most women are incapable of raping a man, without drugs or a gun. All this to say, I'm not sure what the point of the subthread is.
  - sneed_420 4y ago
    >males have less control over their sexual behaviour speak for yourself, coomer
- sofixa 4y ago
  Because sexual abuse, at all ages, is prevalently a male dominated.. "activity" ( with the drastic underreporting taken into account).
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    It's "male dominated" but not anywhere near the 90/10 split most people imagine when hearing the word "mostly". The actual numbers are still way out there with how many victims (especially male victims) are ridiculed, and how many perpetrators (especially female perpetrators) are left off the hook.
    - str34m 4y ago
      Haha, yeah right. It's probably higher than 90/10 by any metric, and the more violent sexual crimes are almost always men. Men commit 97% of murders worldwide. Ironically though it is men that are most likely to find an ideology that deems other cohorts within society as collectively bad and representative of moral decay.
      - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
        >It's probably higher than 90/10 by any metric Sexual abuse against men is about 50/50 men and women alone. Even if sexual abuse against women was predominantly male perpetrators, you'd need a far, far higher number of female sexual abuse numbers to get over 90/10. Again, good luck trying to claim that when there are so many social issues masking the true numbers. That's not to mention a large part of arguments rely on "men in charge", whereas most of the developed world is giving women increasingly more power, at least partially nullifying the former. >Ironically though it is men that are most likely to find an ideology that deems other cohorts within society as collectively bad and representative of moral decay. You want to articulate that at all and give people a chance to fight your stance?
        str34m 4y ago
- mcv 4y ago
  Note that pfortuny said "mostly". Child abuse by mothers or other women absolutely does exist, but all evidence suggests it's less common than abuse by men.
  - dijit 4y ago
    Not to be crass, but a friend of mine was sexually abused by her grandmother; we heard that "someone" in the house was abusing the girls and the assumption was that it was the father. Do you think that it's possible that we overlook female predators which assists in padding statistics causing this perception to be somewhat self-fulfilling? Obviously my anecdote doesn't apply to all places, that's not how statistics work, but it was the case that the grandmother was overlooked, and even when caught did not go into the crime statistics as it was considered a social services matter.
    - pegasus 4y ago
      Because a large percentage of abuse goes completely unreported, I would expect we overlook even more male predators. The balance of power inside families tends to generally incline in their favour, so they surely find it easier to cover up their tracks.
      - klibertp 4y ago
        > The balance of power inside families The question is: is gender even related to this? Or is a position of power simply that much less often taken by a woman in a family? Similarly with race, ethnicity, job, and so on. I'm willing to believe there's a certain percentage of humans in general that simply enjoy hurting others - and that it's a much larger percentage than we'd expect. I also suspect that most of them are unaware of this fact about themselves, and so they don't actively, or consciously, seek to position themselves in a way that would allow them to hurt other without consequences. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people who both know their nature and actively seek to express it via abuse of power to be vanishingly small[1]. If all of the above is true, then we're left with people who enjoy hurting others, but don't realize this or don't express it without being put in a position of power. When they are put in a position of power, they start expressing their desires. Whether they are men or women, white or not, rich or poor, etc. I think has little significance. [1] If you understand yourself well enough to know about this, you're also generally intelligent enough not to try doing it on random, unwilling people.
jliptzin 4y ago
Don’t give them any ideas, next they will mandate cameras in every bedroom streaming back to the police.
philjohn 4y ago
Immediate parent, or close "adult in a trusted position" (e.g. scout leader, pastor, close family friend).
BeefWellington 4y ago
There are parallels here to FBI Agent Ken Lanning's linking of Satanic Panic to X-Rays showing how prevalent child abuse was.[1][2] Nobody wants to talk about the real ugly side of the story here. "Think of the children" seems to be the battle cry of people with bad ideas that won't work anyways. Ultimately you can't outlaw math. Instead it'll wind up being just the criminals using actually secure encryption and none of this will matter anyway. [1] https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/satanic-panic https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/satanic-panic [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html
the_only_law 4y ago
> I just want to point out that lots of the sexual abuse of children are by the child's parent This seems to be the case in most crimes people freak the fuck out about. I believe, for example, kidnapping and abductions in general tend to be from someone the child knows.

teddyh 4y ago

> mostly the father, obviously Why is that obvious?

pfortuny 4y ago
From a historical point of view, and because males have less control over their sexual behaviour. I was distinguishing between father and mother, should have said so. I was not referring to relatives living out of home, as they would need some form of communication to set up their encounters, probably.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- the_other 4y ago
  I'd argue the abusers have more control over their behaviour, not less. They have chosen to act this way because they fear no reprisal.
  - pfortuny 4y ago
    No, that is not the definition of control, sorry. I am not trying to downplay their responsibility, honestly, I am just trying to speak properly. And that is just a biological fact.
    - smolder 4y ago
      This "biological fact" about men having less control over their sexual behavior is new to me. I hate to do the "citation needed" thing, but where are you getting this from? What's the empirical evidence? Do you mean because women pick their mates or something like that? The males have to attract them with displays of plumage?
      - consp 4y ago
        I agree with your citation needed. There are many culture which wave away responsibility of men for choosing their actions since it "is in their nature". My guess is that it's modeled behavior by the society they live in (and thus can be changed) but I have no sources.
  - concordDance 4y ago
    Does a male have a higher sex drive? Are they more likely to rape? If yes, then women have, in the aggregate, more control over their sexual behaviour than men. And thus men have less control. This does not necesarily imply anything about what the punishment for rape or assault should be. Note: I am eliding a lot of what the definition of a person is (e.g. everything contained in their skin? Just concious processes? Some form of "natural" baseline that excludes tumors/drugs/etc?) in the above so YMMV. I recommend using "I agree with the denotation but disagree with connotation/affect" for situations like replying to the grandparent post.
    - mygoodaccount 4y ago
      >Does a male have a higher sex drive? Yes. Sex drive has a lot to do with T levels. Woman's sex drive is at her highest when her T is highest (ovulating). >More likely to rape Yes. Rape requires physicality. Most women are incapable of raping a man, without drugs or a gun. All this to say, I'm not sure what the point of the subthread is.
- sneed_420 4y ago
  >males have less control over their sexual behaviour speak for yourself, coomer
sofixa 4y ago
Because sexual abuse, at all ages, is prevalently a male dominated.. "activity" ( with the drastic underreporting taken into account).
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  It's "male dominated" but not anywhere near the 90/10 split most people imagine when hearing the word "mostly". The actual numbers are still way out there with how many victims (especially male victims) are ridiculed, and how many perpetrators (especially female perpetrators) are left off the hook.
  - str34m 4y ago
    Haha, yeah right. It's probably higher than 90/10 by any metric, and the more violent sexual crimes are almost always men. Men commit 97% of murders worldwide. Ironically though it is men that are most likely to find an ideology that deems other cohorts within society as collectively bad and representative of moral decay.
    - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
      >It's probably higher than 90/10 by any metric Sexual abuse against men is about 50/50 men and women alone. Even if sexual abuse against women was predominantly male perpetrators, you'd need a far, far higher number of female sexual abuse numbers to get over 90/10. Again, good luck trying to claim that when there are so many social issues masking the true numbers. That's not to mention a large part of arguments rely on "men in charge", whereas most of the developed world is giving women increasingly more power, at least partially nullifying the former. >Ironically though it is men that are most likely to find an ideology that deems other cohorts within society as collectively bad and representative of moral decay. You want to articulate that at all and give people a chance to fight your stance?
      - str34m 4y ago
mcv 4y ago
Note that pfortuny said "mostly". Child abuse by mothers or other women absolutely does exist, but all evidence suggests it's less common than abuse by men.
- dijit 4y ago
  Not to be crass, but a friend of mine was sexually abused by her grandmother; we heard that "someone" in the house was abusing the girls and the assumption was that it was the father. Do you think that it's possible that we overlook female predators which assists in padding statistics causing this perception to be somewhat self-fulfilling? Obviously my anecdote doesn't apply to all places, that's not how statistics work, but it was the case that the grandmother was overlooked, and even when caught did not go into the crime statistics as it was considered a social services matter.
  - pegasus 4y ago
    Because a large percentage of abuse goes completely unreported, I would expect we overlook even more male predators. The balance of power inside families tends to generally incline in their favour, so they surely find it easier to cover up their tracks.
    - klibertp 4y ago
      > The balance of power inside families The question is: is gender even related to this? Or is a position of power simply that much less often taken by a woman in a family? Similarly with race, ethnicity, job, and so on. I'm willing to believe there's a certain percentage of humans in general that simply enjoy hurting others - and that it's a much larger percentage than we'd expect. I also suspect that most of them are unaware of this fact about themselves, and so they don't actively, or consciously, seek to position themselves in a way that would allow them to hurt other without consequences. I would be willing to bet that the percentage of people who both know their nature and actively seek to express it via abuse of power to be vanishingly small[1]. If all of the above is true, then we're left with people who enjoy hurting others, but don't realize this or don't express it without being put in a position of power. When they are put in a position of power, they start expressing their desires. Whether they are men or women, white or not, rich or poor, etc. I think has little significance. [1] If you understand yourself well enough to know about this, you're also generally intelligent enough not to try doing it on random, unwilling people.

jliptzin 4y ago

Don’t give them any ideas, next they will mandate cameras in every bedroom streaming back to the police.

philjohn 4y ago

Immediate parent, or close "adult in a trusted position" (e.g. scout leader, pastor, close family friend).

BeefWellington 4y ago

There are parallels here to FBI Agent Ken Lanning's linking of Satanic Panic to X-Rays showing how prevalent child abuse was.[1][2] Nobody wants to talk about the real ugly side of the story here. "Think of the children" seems to be the battle cry of people with bad ideas that won't work anyways. Ultimately you can't outlaw math. Instead it'll wind up being just the criminals using actually secure encryption and none of this will matter anyway. [1] https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/satanic-panic https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/longform/satanic-panic [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/31/us/satanic-panic.html

the_only_law 4y ago

> I just want to point out that lots of the sexual abuse of children are by the child's parent This seems to be the case in most crimes people freak the fuck out about. I believe, for example, kidnapping and abductions in general tend to be from someone the child knows.