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The hacker must have trouble walking around... y'know, because of his gigantic balls? All jokes aside, I wonder how denialists will react to this. And I'm curi

The hacker must have trouble walking around... y'know, because of his gigantic balls? All jokes aside, I wonder how denialists will react to this. And I'm curious how China will attempt to explain this away. Can't wait for more detailed reports to come out. BBC's report [1] has been particularly interesting so far. I wonder what happens next. 1. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-chinas-uyghur-detention-camps https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/85qihtvw6e/the-faces-from-c...

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
trasz 4y ago
- sofixa 4y ago
  > It’s just that it’s not all that different from prison Except for it's reason for existence ( forced cultural assimilation aka genocide) and it's methods, which include forced sterilisations alongside the regular torture?
  - Koiwai 4y ago
    There's no valid evidence of that.
    - ninjin 4y ago
      Well, I am sure that independent investigators will be welcomed with open arms any moment now to set the record straight. I am being facetious of course, because wherever these kinds of events transpire (and regardless of the alleged perpetrator) there seemingly magically pops up barriers to establishing what is actually going on.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      What would be valid evidence? The post we're discussing, alongside the years of reporting, seem pretty valid to me.
      - trasz 4y ago
        Can you show me the part where the post documents systemic sterilization, or torture, or any of the “cultural genocide” claims? Note that nobody claims there were no cases of the above; it’s just those cases also happen in eg American prisons. (And of course note how simply asking a question - and suggesting the apparently missing evidence is, indeed, missing, gets quickly downvoted.)
        md_ 4y ago
        I'm confused. Is your point that the rates in Xinjiang of forced sterilization and IUD implantation--in the general population, not merely in prisons--is equivalent to the rates of forced sterilization in American prison populations? I think that's exceedingly unlikely; there's no pattern of forced sterilization in American prison populations, though indeed a shameful history of such practices (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/california-prisons-forced-sterilizations-belly-beast https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/california-p...). Compare that to population-wide sterilization campaigns in Xinjiang: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-bir.... And if that is your claim, is your point that a population-wide rate of torture and forced sterilization equivalent to that inside American prisons is...acceptable? It's really unclear to me what you are trying to say with your repeated analogies to other human rights abuses. That there are multiple bad things in the world, so we should give up on trying to criticise them? I don't think anyone takes the American Cancer Society to be saying that death by heart attack is good--merely that their focus is on cancer. So too, critics of systemic, widespread, and officially sanctioned torture and genocide in China are not saying that other torture--be it systemic or not, widespread or not, sanctioned or not--is somehow better. They're merely focusing on one particular hotspot, where the offenses are particularly stark. Those who, like you in this thread, say, "But what about X", are hard to take on good faith. They never seem to be saying, "Let's also talk about X", or "how can we eliminate all torture." Rather, they seem to suggest that critics of widespread Chinese torture are somehow anti-Chinese, that the motives should be questioned, and, by implication, perhaps that well-documented Chinese torture does not exist. It's deliberate obfuscation for the purposes of disinformation, as you are clearly engaged in here.
md_ 4y ago
The New Yorker has also had some pretty in-depth reporting on abuses in Xinjiang: https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/china-xinjiang-prison-state-uighur-detention-camps-prisoner-testimony https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/china-xin... https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-... Same with The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/ https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/04/uyghur-women-china-xinjiang/618531/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/04/uy... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/china-threatens-uighurs-europe/596347/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/ch... Interesting is the detail that Chinese state agents routinely attempt to silent Uyghur voices outside of China as well: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/13/800118582/i-thought-it-would-be-safe-uighurs-in-turkey-now-fear-china-s-long-arm https://www.npr.org/2020/03/13/800118582/i-thought-it-would-....
ourlordcaffeine 4y ago
>I wonder how denialists will react to this Claim it's all made up by Adrian Zenz and the BBC and the uighurs are all living happily >And I'm curious how China will attempt to explain this away. Claim it's all made up by the BBC and "anti-China" forces

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

trasz 4y ago

sofixa 4y ago
> It’s just that it’s not all that different from prison Except for it's reason for existence ( forced cultural assimilation aka genocide) and it's methods, which include forced sterilisations alongside the regular torture?
- Koiwai 4y ago
  There's no valid evidence of that.
  - ninjin 4y ago
    Well, I am sure that independent investigators will be welcomed with open arms any moment now to set the record straight. I am being facetious of course, because wherever these kinds of events transpire (and regardless of the alleged perpetrator) there seemingly magically pops up barriers to establishing what is actually going on.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    What would be valid evidence? The post we're discussing, alongside the years of reporting, seem pretty valid to me.
    - trasz 4y ago
      Can you show me the part where the post documents systemic sterilization, or torture, or any of the “cultural genocide” claims? Note that nobody claims there were no cases of the above; it’s just those cases also happen in eg American prisons. (And of course note how simply asking a question - and suggesting the apparently missing evidence is, indeed, missing, gets quickly downvoted.)
      - md_ 4y ago
        I'm confused. Is your point that the rates in Xinjiang of forced sterilization and IUD implantation--in the general population, not merely in prisons--is equivalent to the rates of forced sterilization in American prison populations? I think that's exceedingly unlikely; there's no pattern of forced sterilization in American prison populations, though indeed a shameful history of such practices (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/california-prisons-forced-sterilizations-belly-beast https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/30/california-p...). Compare that to population-wide sterilization campaigns in Xinjiang: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-birthrate-sterilization-genocide https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/22311356/china-uyghur-bir.... And if that is your claim, is your point that a population-wide rate of torture and forced sterilization equivalent to that inside American prisons is...acceptable? It's really unclear to me what you are trying to say with your repeated analogies to other human rights abuses. That there are multiple bad things in the world, so we should give up on trying to criticise them? I don't think anyone takes the American Cancer Society to be saying that death by heart attack is good--merely that their focus is on cancer. So too, critics of systemic, widespread, and officially sanctioned torture and genocide in China are not saying that other torture--be it systemic or not, widespread or not, sanctioned or not--is somehow better. They're merely focusing on one particular hotspot, where the offenses are particularly stark. Those who, like you in this thread, say, "But what about X", are hard to take on good faith. They never seem to be saying, "Let's also talk about X", or "how can we eliminate all torture." Rather, they seem to suggest that critics of widespread Chinese torture are somehow anti-Chinese, that the motives should be questioned, and, by implication, perhaps that well-documented Chinese torture does not exist. It's deliberate obfuscation for the purposes of disinformation, as you are clearly engaged in here.

md_ 4y ago

The New Yorker has also had some pretty in-depth reporting on abuses in Xinjiang: https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/china-xinjiang-prison-state-uighur-detention-camps-prisoner-testimony https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/china-xin... https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-crackdown-in-xinjiang https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/04/12/surviving-the-... Same with The Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/ https://www.theatlantic.com/the-uyghur-chronicles/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/04/uyghur-women-china-xinjiang/618531/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2021/04/uy... https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/china-threatens-uighurs-europe/596347/ https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/08/ch... Interesting is the detail that Chinese state agents routinely attempt to silent Uyghur voices outside of China as well: https://www.npr.org/2020/03/13/800118582/i-thought-it-would-be-safe-uighurs-in-turkey-now-fear-china-s-long-arm https://www.npr.org/2020/03/13/800118582/i-thought-it-would-....

ourlordcaffeine 4y ago

>I wonder how denialists will react to this Claim it's all made up by Adrian Zenz and the BBC and the uighurs are all living happily >And I'm curious how China will attempt to explain this away. Claim it's all made up by the BBC and "anti-China" forces