3 ms·

Yes, any sexual activity that happens when the mind is not totally sober is rape

ncmncm 4y ago
Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal
quantified 4y ago
That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
  - quantified 4y ago
    Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. And no means no, and her not being enthusiastic is a good sign you should go home. Those go a long way to not being accused. Agreed that being wrongfully accused of rape is a crapshoot.
    - mecha_ghidorah 4y ago
      > Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. I meaaaaaan sort of. You can see how much they drink in front of you. You can't say whether they have pre-gamed or are sneaking shots from the bar/a flask they carry while you are in the bathroom. Obviously if they seem so drunk they aren't in their right mind you should wait, but I'm just pointing out this isn't strictly true
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
smolder 4y ago
That stance strikes me as untenable. People get consensually drunk while horny all the time, and act on it, usually without major regrets. Taking the hard line of requiring absolute sobriety for consent invites all sorts of other decision-making inhibitors to effectively invalidate consent. Anxiety disorder? Consent didn't count. Low blood sugar? Grieving a lost loved one? Tired from jogging? Didn't count. I am wholly behind consent between children and adults of actually significant age gap being invalid (the standard creepiness rule from xkcd comes to mind,) but mental fitness to make the choice really is a blurry line and intents should be considered. Well-meaning people who had no intent to exploit or coerce are not rapists because of one voluntary beer, nor should the justice system treat them as such. It only encourages another kind of victimization via the courts.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Where is the line then? How are you going to argue to the judge that you were on the "anxiety disorder, single beer, diabetic" side of the line? Is that a risk that anyone will want to take?
  - smolder 4y ago
    Fortunately I don't have to write laws or adjudicate these things. I simply cannot draw a line at X number of beers, or whatever other arbitrary thing. Were they walking straight on their own and talking without slurred speech when they left or were they stumbling out? Did they go out specifically with intent to get laid by a stranger they haven't met yet? Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? Lots of factors would affect my opinion on whether it was a predatory situation or not. I think I would tend to believe victims are victims, though not if there are clues they are just playing one and using the sexual encounter as a weapon.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      But, how are you going to make the decision in the future whether or not someone is sober enough to have sex with? > Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? That isn't the criteria, the criteria is whether or not the victim is too drunk to consent. How can you know this? > I think I would tend to believe victims are victims I don't think you would if you were the rapist who had misjudged the drunkenness of the other person

Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.

bowsamic 4y ago
Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal

quantified 4y ago

That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.

bowsamic 4y ago
How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
- quantified 4y ago
  Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. And no means no, and her not being enthusiastic is a good sign you should go home. Those go a long way to not being accused. Agreed that being wrongfully accused of rape is a crapshoot.
  - mecha_ghidorah 4y ago
    > Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. I meaaaaaan sort of. You can see how much they drink in front of you. You can't say whether they have pre-gamed or are sneaking shots from the bar/a flask they carry while you are in the bathroom. Obviously if they seem so drunk they aren't in their right mind you should wait, but I'm just pointing out this isn't strictly true

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

smolder 4y ago

That stance strikes me as untenable. People get consensually drunk while horny all the time, and act on it, usually without major regrets. Taking the hard line of requiring absolute sobriety for consent invites all sorts of other decision-making inhibitors to effectively invalidate consent. Anxiety disorder? Consent didn't count. Low blood sugar? Grieving a lost loved one? Tired from jogging? Didn't count. I am wholly behind consent between children and adults of actually significant age gap being invalid (the standard creepiness rule from xkcd comes to mind,) but mental fitness to make the choice really is a blurry line and intents should be considered. Well-meaning people who had no intent to exploit or coerce are not rapists because of one voluntary beer, nor should the justice system treat them as such. It only encourages another kind of victimization via the courts.

bowsamic 4y ago
Where is the line then? How are you going to argue to the judge that you were on the "anxiety disorder, single beer, diabetic" side of the line? Is that a risk that anyone will want to take?
- smolder 4y ago
  Fortunately I don't have to write laws or adjudicate these things. I simply cannot draw a line at X number of beers, or whatever other arbitrary thing. Were they walking straight on their own and talking without slurred speech when they left or were they stumbling out? Did they go out specifically with intent to get laid by a stranger they haven't met yet? Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? Lots of factors would affect my opinion on whether it was a predatory situation or not. I think I would tend to believe victims are victims, though not if there are clues they are just playing one and using the sexual encounter as a weapon.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    But, how are you going to make the decision in the future whether or not someone is sober enough to have sex with? > Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? That isn't the criteria, the criteria is whether or not the victim is too drunk to consent. How can you know this? > I think I would tend to believe victims are victims I don't think you would if you were the rapist who had misjudged the drunkenness of the other person