3 ms·

I had a housemate, back when, who went out every weekend and got drunk because she considered that the only way to get sex. Whoever she bonked was invariably eq

by ncmncm 4y ago

I had a housemate, back when, who went out every weekend and got drunk because she considered that the only way to get sex. Whoever she bonked was invariably equally drunk. Did she rape him? Did he rape her? Did they rape one another? Afterward, neither might be sure what actually happened, but both knew that whatever happened was what they went out for. Going to that bar and getting that drunk was something each chose to do while still sober, exactly like everybody else there. So, was every last patron of that bar raping somebody every weekend?

bowsamic 4y ago
Yes, any sexual activity that happens when the mind is not totally sober is rape
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal
- quantified 4y ago
  That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
    - quantified 4y ago
      Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. And no means no, and her not being enthusiastic is a good sign you should go home. Those go a long way to not being accused. Agreed that being wrongfully accused of rape is a crapshoot.
      - mecha_ghidorah 4y ago
        > Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. I meaaaaaan sort of. You can see how much they drink in front of you. You can't say whether they have pre-gamed or are sneaking shots from the bar/a flask they carry while you are in the bathroom. Obviously if they seem so drunk they aren't in their right mind you should wait, but I'm just pointing out this isn't strictly true
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- smolder 4y ago
  That stance strikes me as untenable. People get consensually drunk while horny all the time, and act on it, usually without major regrets. Taking the hard line of requiring absolute sobriety for consent invites all sorts of other decision-making inhibitors to effectively invalidate consent. Anxiety disorder? Consent didn't count. Low blood sugar? Grieving a lost loved one? Tired from jogging? Didn't count. I am wholly behind consent between children and adults of actually significant age gap being invalid (the standard creepiness rule from xkcd comes to mind,) but mental fitness to make the choice really is a blurry line and intents should be considered. Well-meaning people who had no intent to exploit or coerce are not rapists because of one voluntary beer, nor should the justice system treat them as such. It only encourages another kind of victimization via the courts.
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Where is the line then? How are you going to argue to the judge that you were on the "anxiety disorder, single beer, diabetic" side of the line? Is that a risk that anyone will want to take?
    - smolder 4y ago
      Fortunately I don't have to write laws or adjudicate these things. I simply cannot draw a line at X number of beers, or whatever other arbitrary thing. Were they walking straight on their own and talking without slurred speech when they left or were they stumbling out? Did they go out specifically with intent to get laid by a stranger they haven't met yet? Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? Lots of factors would affect my opinion on whether it was a predatory situation or not. I think I would tend to believe victims are victims, though not if there are clues they are just playing one and using the sexual encounter as a weapon.
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        But, how are you going to make the decision in the future whether or not someone is sober enough to have sex with? > Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? That isn't the criteria, the criteria is whether or not the victim is too drunk to consent. How can you know this? > I think I would tend to believe victims are victims I don't think you would if you were the rapist who had misjudged the drunkenness of the other person
quantified 4y ago
That's incredibly sad and misguided.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Yet, true.
michaelmrose 4y ago
Your housemates behavior is stupid, abhorrent, morally and mentally deficient. Arguably while sober its possible that both parties in full possession of their faculties may have made the choice to have drunk sex with someone only actuated when they both sloppy drunk met the ultimate person they were going to get busy with. The problem is that the answer is indeterminate. If someone absolutely intended to get busy it argues against them being the victim by virtue of having made as you've said the decision to take such action while sober however its absolutely possible for them to rape another who didn't make such a decision while drunk number one are themselves are too impaired to judge the situation and its also possible for someone else to believe they were getting over on an impaired partner. That is someone, drunk number two, can morally but not legally be guilty of rape because it was their intent to get someone drunk to impair their judgement to allow them to sleep with them. This is something like driving a little drunk and arguing whether or not someone murdered someone by driving impaired. It can be legitimately difficult to tease out moral culpability in edge cases. For example its entirely possible for the drunk driver to be blameless in a crash caused by the incompetent actions of a sober driver, for example running a red light. Most situations are less ambiguous and the the solution to such ambiguity is to simply not drive drunk or use alcohol to lubricate sexual conquests. There is a degree in moral insanity in a substantial portion of the population not understanding how to deal with such a simple situation.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  > Your housemates behavior is stupid, abhorrent, morally and mentally deficient. ... and wholly irrelevant to the legal question.

by ncmncm 4y ago

bowsamic 4y ago

Yes, any sexual activity that happens when the mind is not totally sober is rape

ncmncm 4y ago
Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal
quantified 4y ago
That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
  - quantified 4y ago
    Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. And no means no, and her not being enthusiastic is a good sign you should go home. Those go a long way to not being accused. Agreed that being wrongfully accused of rape is a crapshoot.
    - mecha_ghidorah 4y ago
      > Well, for my date or wife (at times when I have one or the other), I can see how much they've drunk. I meaaaaaan sort of. You can see how much they drink in front of you. You can't say whether they have pre-gamed or are sneaking shots from the bar/a flask they carry while you are in the bathroom. Obviously if they seem so drunk they aren't in their right mind you should wait, but I'm just pointing out this isn't strictly true
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
smolder 4y ago
That stance strikes me as untenable. People get consensually drunk while horny all the time, and act on it, usually without major regrets. Taking the hard line of requiring absolute sobriety for consent invites all sorts of other decision-making inhibitors to effectively invalidate consent. Anxiety disorder? Consent didn't count. Low blood sugar? Grieving a lost loved one? Tired from jogging? Didn't count. I am wholly behind consent between children and adults of actually significant age gap being invalid (the standard creepiness rule from xkcd comes to mind,) but mental fitness to make the choice really is a blurry line and intents should be considered. Well-meaning people who had no intent to exploit or coerce are not rapists because of one voluntary beer, nor should the justice system treat them as such. It only encourages another kind of victimization via the courts.
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Where is the line then? How are you going to argue to the judge that you were on the "anxiety disorder, single beer, diabetic" side of the line? Is that a risk that anyone will want to take?
  - smolder 4y ago
    Fortunately I don't have to write laws or adjudicate these things. I simply cannot draw a line at X number of beers, or whatever other arbitrary thing. Were they walking straight on their own and talking without slurred speech when they left or were they stumbling out? Did they go out specifically with intent to get laid by a stranger they haven't met yet? Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? Lots of factors would affect my opinion on whether it was a predatory situation or not. I think I would tend to believe victims are victims, though not if there are clues they are just playing one and using the sexual encounter as a weapon.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      But, how are you going to make the decision in the future whether or not someone is sober enough to have sex with? > Did the would-be rapist encourage them to drink more, or order them strong drinks on purpose? That isn't the criteria, the criteria is whether or not the victim is too drunk to consent. How can you know this? > I think I would tend to believe victims are victims I don't think you would if you were the rapist who had misjudged the drunkenness of the other person

quantified 4y ago

That's incredibly sad and misguided.

ncmncm 4y ago
Yet, true.

michaelmrose 4y ago

Your housemates behavior is stupid, abhorrent, morally and mentally deficient. Arguably while sober its possible that both parties in full possession of their faculties may have made the choice to have drunk sex with someone only actuated when they both sloppy drunk met the ultimate person they were going to get busy with. The problem is that the answer is indeterminate. If someone absolutely intended to get busy it argues against them being the victim by virtue of having made as you've said the decision to take such action while sober however its absolutely possible for them to rape another who didn't make such a decision while drunk number one are themselves are too impaired to judge the situation and its also possible for someone else to believe they were getting over on an impaired partner. That is someone, drunk number two, can morally but not legally be guilty of rape because it was their intent to get someone drunk to impair their judgement to allow them to sleep with them. This is something like driving a little drunk and arguing whether or not someone murdered someone by driving impaired. It can be legitimately difficult to tease out moral culpability in edge cases. For example its entirely possible for the drunk driver to be blameless in a crash caused by the incompetent actions of a sober driver, for example running a red light. Most situations are less ambiguous and the the solution to such ambiguity is to simply not drive drunk or use alcohol to lubricate sexual conquests. There is a degree in moral insanity in a substantial portion of the population not understanding how to deal with such a simple situation.

ncmncm 4y ago
> Your housemates behavior is stupid, abhorrent, morally and mentally deficient. ... and wholly irrelevant to the legal question.