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> In particular this would include me -- as while black out drunk I was subject to a graphic homosexual encounter for which I could not consent. I don't know t

> In particular this would include me -- as while black out drunk I was subject to a graphic homosexual encounter for which I could not consent. I don't know the backstory, and I don't know OP, so I want to be careful and clearly state that I am not minimizing or in any way commenting on the facts of his case. However, the statement above is dangerously wrong from both a legal and a biological standpoint, and needs to be debunked. Any forensic toxicologist will tell you: the point of alcohol intoxication which interferes with forming long-term memories is lower than the point at which one cannot consent. Exercising poor judgment while drunk and later having a spotty memory of it does not mean you were a victim. Consenting to something when you're black out drunk is still consent. If you exercise poor judgment about having sex and later can't remember, it does not mean you were sexually assaulted. If you exercise poor judgment about buying more shots and later can't remember, it does not mean the bartender stole from you. If you exercise poor judgment about driving and later can't remember how you got home, you and you alone are still responsible for your decision to drive drunk. The neurobiological capacity to make decisions and the neurobiological capacity to form long-term memories are not identical. Conflate them at your own peril.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
> Consenting to something when you're black out drunk is still consent. This is not at all true. You don’t have the capacity to consent if you’re black out drunk.
- torstenvl 4y ago
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    You’re being pedantic (“black out drunk doesn’t mean you can’t consent”). If you want to be specific, which based on your profile you would want to be, the exact terms are “evidence of the victim's mental incapacity or defect is admissible to prove that consent was not intelligent, knowing, or voluntary.” (Florida state statute 794.022(4) specifically as an example)
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  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    The legal and moral notion of consent to sexual activity isn't and logically driven by your brains ability to form memories or actuate voluntary motion. For someone to give consent they have to have sufficient higher function to make a reasonable judgement. If you fuck someone drunk off their ass because they can move and respond you probably morally and legally raped them in at least half the nation. For example in California https://properdefenselaw.com/drunk-sex-rape-in-california-cal-penal-code-section-261a3/ https://properdefenselaw.com/drunk-sex-rape-in-california-ca... New Jersey https://www.brickdonlaw.com/blog/2021/january/how-drunk-is-too-drunk-to-consent-to-sex-/ https://www.brickdonlaw.com/blog/2021/january/how-drunk-is-t... The fact that some states will let you get someone drunk enough to be stupid in order to get into their pants isn't a good reason to do so.
    - torstenvl 4y ago
      > The courts in California have found the following conduct shows that someone was too intoxicated to consent . . .passed out at some point or had trouble walking on their own . . . agreeing that the victim needed to “sleep it off” . . . vomiting . . . vomiting and hit the wall. Notably absent is alcohol's effect on long-term memory. Drinking to the point of impairing long-term episodic memory (BAC of 0.08-0.15) is not the same as drinking to the point you cannot consent.
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        Drinking to the point of impairing memory would seem at best impair judgement and ensure the person has no way to discern whether they consented or not. I see no reason to treat that as valid consent millions of people in the states live in states that wouldn't. Morally respecting partners rights costs you nothing.
- namecheapTA 4y ago
  I have a video friends took of me, that I don't remember entire HOURS of before and after. In the video you can clearly see I am happy drunk but you couldn't get me to consent to things I didn't want IMO. Im not some confused lump ready to be taken advantage of, yet I lost all memory of that 4th of July BBQ. Plus, beyond my anecdote, the guy above posted research. Do we not believe in science anymore?
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    >Do we not believe in science anymore? You are confusing posting a link with winning an argument. The problem is people have fundamental moral and legal disagreement about what constitutes consent with poster asserting it has to do with ability to make decisions and others including lawmakers in multiple states holding it rests in not being sufficiently impaired to severely degrade ones decision making ability. It's impossible for the posters link to resolve this divergent understanding.
    - namecheapTA 4y ago
      No doubt people throw their own emotional arguments into things that have been researched with 1000x rigor compared to their internal hunches.. it doesn't mean it's right. People's entire lives are derailed when they drink and get in a car and get caught for a DUI. The fact that we prosecute people, fine them amounts greater than some people's entire savings, throw them in jail, make them loose their jobs... For deciding to get into a car after 5 drinks. But if you decide to sleep with someone after 5 drinks, you were taken advantage of and that person should be prosecuted. In one case we give no sympathy for being drunk, and in the other we treat you like a child.
- ncmncm 4y ago
  I had a housemate, back when, who went out every weekend and got drunk because she considered that the only way to get sex. Whoever she bonked was invariably equally drunk. Did she rape him? Did he rape her? Did they rape one another? Afterward, neither might be sure what actually happened, but both knew that whatever happened was what they went out for. Going to that bar and getting that drunk was something each chose to do while still sober, exactly like everybody else there. So, was every last patron of that bar raping somebody every weekend?
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Yes, any sexual activity that happens when the mind is not totally sober is rape
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal
    - quantified 4y ago
      That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
- vintermann 4y ago
  Whether you are blackout drunk or not should not be the dividing line, because you can be terribly impaired without having blackout, and you can have blackout without being terribly impaired. It's not in general possible to tell if someone will have blackout. I think it's important to understand that alcohol only slows your thinking, it doesn't "change your personality" or make your thoughts or wants go places they otherwise wouldn't. All that is socially learned. The drunk you is you. If you state consent as drunk, it's because you want to. In practice, though, blackout is a terrifying experience, and for all the blacked-out person knows they were completely unconscious during what happened. So they can't be faulted for fearing they were abused. And so, for your sake and theirs, you should NEVER have sex with anyone if there's the slightest chance they have blackout, i.e. if you can tell they are drunk at all. This is an easy rule to follow, and I have very little sympathy with people who can't.
Latty 4y ago
Your post implies you think that being able to say the word yes and being able to consent are the same thing, which is frankly worrying. The obvious example is children can say yes, but they cannot consent. This isn't new or surprising.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

> Consenting to something when you're black out drunk is still consent. This is not at all true. You don’t have the capacity to consent if you’re black out drunk.

torstenvl 4y ago
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  You’re being pedantic (“black out drunk doesn’t mean you can’t consent”). If you want to be specific, which based on your profile you would want to be, the exact terms are “evidence of the victim's mental incapacity or defect is admissible to prove that consent was not intelligent, knowing, or voluntary.” (Florida state statute 794.022(4) specifically as an example)
  - deleted 4y ago
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- michaelmrose 4y ago
  The legal and moral notion of consent to sexual activity isn't and logically driven by your brains ability to form memories or actuate voluntary motion. For someone to give consent they have to have sufficient higher function to make a reasonable judgement. If you fuck someone drunk off their ass because they can move and respond you probably morally and legally raped them in at least half the nation. For example in California https://properdefenselaw.com/drunk-sex-rape-in-california-cal-penal-code-section-261a3/ https://properdefenselaw.com/drunk-sex-rape-in-california-ca... New Jersey https://www.brickdonlaw.com/blog/2021/january/how-drunk-is-too-drunk-to-consent-to-sex-/ https://www.brickdonlaw.com/blog/2021/january/how-drunk-is-t... The fact that some states will let you get someone drunk enough to be stupid in order to get into their pants isn't a good reason to do so.
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    > The courts in California have found the following conduct shows that someone was too intoxicated to consent . . .passed out at some point or had trouble walking on their own . . . agreeing that the victim needed to “sleep it off” . . . vomiting . . . vomiting and hit the wall. Notably absent is alcohol's effect on long-term memory. Drinking to the point of impairing long-term episodic memory (BAC of 0.08-0.15) is not the same as drinking to the point you cannot consent.
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      Drinking to the point of impairing memory would seem at best impair judgement and ensure the person has no way to discern whether they consented or not. I see no reason to treat that as valid consent millions of people in the states live in states that wouldn't. Morally respecting partners rights costs you nothing.
namecheapTA 4y ago
I have a video friends took of me, that I don't remember entire HOURS of before and after. In the video you can clearly see I am happy drunk but you couldn't get me to consent to things I didn't want IMO. Im not some confused lump ready to be taken advantage of, yet I lost all memory of that 4th of July BBQ. Plus, beyond my anecdote, the guy above posted research. Do we not believe in science anymore?
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  >Do we not believe in science anymore? You are confusing posting a link with winning an argument. The problem is people have fundamental moral and legal disagreement about what constitutes consent with poster asserting it has to do with ability to make decisions and others including lawmakers in multiple states holding it rests in not being sufficiently impaired to severely degrade ones decision making ability. It's impossible for the posters link to resolve this divergent understanding.
  - namecheapTA 4y ago
    No doubt people throw their own emotional arguments into things that have been researched with 1000x rigor compared to their internal hunches.. it doesn't mean it's right. People's entire lives are derailed when they drink and get in a car and get caught for a DUI. The fact that we prosecute people, fine them amounts greater than some people's entire savings, throw them in jail, make them loose their jobs... For deciding to get into a car after 5 drinks. But if you decide to sleep with someone after 5 drinks, you were taken advantage of and that person should be prosecuted. In one case we give no sympathy for being drunk, and in the other we treat you like a child.
ncmncm 4y ago
I had a housemate, back when, who went out every weekend and got drunk because she considered that the only way to get sex. Whoever she bonked was invariably equally drunk. Did she rape him? Did he rape her? Did they rape one another? Afterward, neither might be sure what actually happened, but both knew that whatever happened was what they went out for. Going to that bar and getting that drunk was something each chose to do while still sober, exactly like everybody else there. So, was every last patron of that bar raping somebody every weekend?
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Yes, any sexual activity that happens when the mind is not totally sober is rape
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Each was raping the other? Then, why were cops not there arresting everybody as they showed up? There was no secret about what they were doing, on a regular and predictable schedule. Such bars certainly still exist.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Just because bars where people get drunk and have sex exist does not mean they are legal
  - quantified 4y ago
    That's a bit on the strict side. Lot of sex being enjoyed with cannabis now. And between people who have relationships beyond the one-night stand.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      How are you supposed to actually assess the drunkness of another when the consequence of getting it wrong (or the other person claiming you get it wrong) is that you are accused of rape? I think for this reason sex in general is not a worthwhile risk for most people
vintermann 4y ago
Whether you are blackout drunk or not should not be the dividing line, because you can be terribly impaired without having blackout, and you can have blackout without being terribly impaired. It's not in general possible to tell if someone will have blackout. I think it's important to understand that alcohol only slows your thinking, it doesn't "change your personality" or make your thoughts or wants go places they otherwise wouldn't. All that is socially learned. The drunk you is you. If you state consent as drunk, it's because you want to. In practice, though, blackout is a terrifying experience, and for all the blacked-out person knows they were completely unconscious during what happened. So they can't be faulted for fearing they were abused. And so, for your sake and theirs, you should NEVER have sex with anyone if there's the slightest chance they have blackout, i.e. if you can tell they are drunk at all. This is an easy rule to follow, and I have very little sympathy with people who can't.

Latty 4y ago

Your post implies you think that being able to say the word yes and being able to consent are the same thing, which is frankly worrying. The obvious example is children can say yes, but they cannot consent. This isn't new or surprising.