6 ms·

> So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (because of abstract academic arguments that equivocate all policies short of giving out free drugs and fr

> So when you remove all coercive policies whatsoever (because of abstract academic arguments that equivocate all policies short of giving out free drugs and free money and turning a blind eye to dealers), you manifestly end up nurturing a base of hard-core, long-term addicts. Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...?

PragmaticPulp 4y ago
> Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...? The Portugal narrative hasn't actually been as positive as initially reported by the Cato papers that were based on the first few years following the policy change. More recent data has shown an uptick of lifetime drug use and an increasing trend of drug deaths that doesn't really support the initially successful picture of their program. One of the challenges with interpreting the Portugal data is that they had relatively low drug use to begin with. The initial declarations of victory for their decriminalization programs were based on relatively small numbers and sample sizes that wouldn't pass muster in more rigorous analysis. I know the narrative about Portugal was set years ago by the Cato papers and a few authors, but it isn't really the success story that it's made out to be. It did, however, reduce the number of drug-related prosecutions, though that's an obvious downstream effect of removing a class of drug-related offenses.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  The opioid and fentanyl epidemic exploded over this last decade and earlier. If the data you say exists shows this trend, I'd like to that trend compared to the corresponding trends elsewhere in the world. In the US[1], for example, drug overdose deaths went from about 20k in 2001 to 40k in ~2006, then to 80k in the mid to late 2010's, and now over 100k as of last year[2]. [1] https://nida.nih.gov/drug-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates https://nida.nih.gov/drug-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/...
- _jal 4y ago
  Do you know of a good source of info? > recent data has shown an uptick of lifetime drug use and an increasing trend of drug deaths Depends on the numbers, of course. But I think that is what folks realistically should have expected. Most societies tolerate the same with alcohol.
  - wombatpm 4y ago
    Here is an excellent interactive tool for the last 20 years. https://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/appalachian-overdose-mapping-tool.aspx https://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/appalachian-ove...
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  Drug usage increased in almost all places on the globe or perhaps we have better means to track it. You have to compare it with instances where drug prosecution is strict and those places saw an even higher rise in drug abuses and drug death. By significant margins in some cases bordering on a complete other magnitude. I think Fentanyl in the US is a good example although it also increased in Europe. In countries where usage and dealings are illegal too.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > narrative Thing is, it's actually better there, regardless of what papers are written. Everyone's healthier, using less drugs and there's less violence. Like HIV dropped by 90% among drug users, being the original goal, this is quite a success. Drug related deaths dropped to by 85%.
WillPostForFood 4y ago
The "just decriminalize" narrative about Portugal is a lie. https://twitter.com/shellenbergermd/status/1415345836913922054?lang=en https://twitter.com/shellenbergermd/status/14153458369139220... Portugal has humane, coercive policies to get people off drugs, public use is illegal, and people get arrested.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  No, it's not "a lie." > Thing is, it's actually better there, regardless of what papers are written. Everyone's healthier, using less drugs and there's less violence. > Like HIV dropped by 90% among drug users, being the original goal, this is quite a success. Drug related deaths dropped to by 85%. >> Portugal has humane, coercive policies to get people off drugs, public use is illegal, and people get arrested. Okay? Same as mental health most places? It's still decriminalized and mostly treated as a health problem.
  - WillPostForFood 4y ago
    The lie isn't that Portugal has a good approach, the lie is that places like SF are emulating Portugal. SF is anarchy, and an insult to Portugal, and an immoral horror show for addicts. The lie is that there are no coercive policies in Portugal for drug addicts. It is not all treated like mental health, especially in the US. Public drug use is illegal, police enforce it, and addicts who are arrested can be jailed if they have more than 10 days personal supply, and they can be coerced in to treatment. Open drug scenes like we have in San Francisco are not all allowed.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
If you were a junkie looking to earn a quick buck for your next fix and you decided to engage in petty theft how long do you think you'd get away with that kind of behavior in Portugal? Compare to SF. There's your answer. It's not the drugs that's different. It's that one jurisdiction actually gives a crap about making sure the ancillary problems (that are the reason drugs were ever criminalized to begin with) are mitigated.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > If you were a junkie looking to earn a quick buck for your next fix and you decided to engage in petty theft how long do you think you'd get away with that kind of behavior in Portugal? No idea what you're trying to imply...
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    There's a whole prepackaged narrative for right wing types about drug harm reducement being so bad it's counterproductive. Example headlines: Why We Must Arrest Drug Addicts This is revealing as to where they are coming from: > People who want to kill themselves in the privacy of their own homes by smoking fentanyl should be free to do so. But people who use drugs, camp publicly, and break other laws stemming from their addictions, such as shoplifting, should be arrested. And a big part of it is lying about how other countries deal with drugs to try to paint liberal American cities in a bad light. https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/why-we-must-arrest-drug-addicts https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/why-we-must-arre...
felipellrocha 4y ago

PragmaticPulp 4y ago

> Except that's not at all what happened in Portugal (or in other European programs)...? The Portugal narrative hasn't actually been as positive as initially reported by the Cato papers that were based on the first few years following the policy change. More recent data has shown an uptick of lifetime drug use and an increasing trend of drug deaths that doesn't really support the initially successful picture of their program. One of the challenges with interpreting the Portugal data is that they had relatively low drug use to begin with. The initial declarations of victory for their decriminalization programs were based on relatively small numbers and sample sizes that wouldn't pass muster in more rigorous analysis. I know the narrative about Portugal was set years ago by the Cato papers and a few authors, but it isn't really the success story that it's made out to be. It did, however, reduce the number of drug-related prosecutions, though that's an obvious downstream effect of removing a class of drug-related offenses.

heavyset_go 4y ago
The opioid and fentanyl epidemic exploded over this last decade and earlier. If the data you say exists shows this trend, I'd like to that trend compared to the corresponding trends elsewhere in the world. In the US[1], for example, drug overdose deaths went from about 20k in 2001 to 40k in ~2006, then to 80k in the mid to late 2010's, and now over 100k as of last year[2]. [1] https://nida.nih.gov/drug-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-death-rates https://nida.nih.gov/drug-topics/trends-statistics/overdose-... [2] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/20211117.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2021/...
_jal 4y ago
Do you know of a good source of info? > recent data has shown an uptick of lifetime drug use and an increasing trend of drug deaths Depends on the numbers, of course. But I think that is what folks realistically should have expected. Most societies tolerate the same with alcohol.
- wombatpm 4y ago
  Here is an excellent interactive tool for the last 20 years. https://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/appalachian-overdose-mapping-tool.aspx https://www.norc.org/Research/Projects/Pages/appalachian-ove...
raxxorraxor 4y ago
Drug usage increased in almost all places on the globe or perhaps we have better means to track it. You have to compare it with instances where drug prosecution is strict and those places saw an even higher rise in drug abuses and drug death. By significant margins in some cases bordering on a complete other magnitude. I think Fentanyl in the US is a good example although it also increased in Europe. In countries where usage and dealings are illegal too.
guerrilla 4y ago
> narrative Thing is, it's actually better there, regardless of what papers are written. Everyone's healthier, using less drugs and there's less violence. Like HIV dropped by 90% among drug users, being the original goal, this is quite a success. Drug related deaths dropped to by 85%.

WillPostForFood 4y ago

The "just decriminalize" narrative about Portugal is a lie. https://twitter.com/shellenbergermd/status/1415345836913922054?lang=en https://twitter.com/shellenbergermd/status/14153458369139220... Portugal has humane, coercive policies to get people off drugs, public use is illegal, and people get arrested.

guerrilla 4y ago
No, it's not "a lie." > Thing is, it's actually better there, regardless of what papers are written. Everyone's healthier, using less drugs and there's less violence. > Like HIV dropped by 90% among drug users, being the original goal, this is quite a success. Drug related deaths dropped to by 85%. >> Portugal has humane, coercive policies to get people off drugs, public use is illegal, and people get arrested. Okay? Same as mental health most places? It's still decriminalized and mostly treated as a health problem.
- WillPostForFood 4y ago
  The lie isn't that Portugal has a good approach, the lie is that places like SF are emulating Portugal. SF is anarchy, and an insult to Portugal, and an immoral horror show for addicts. The lie is that there are no coercive policies in Portugal for drug addicts. It is not all treated like mental health, especially in the US. Public drug use is illegal, police enforce it, and addicts who are arrested can be jailed if they have more than 10 days personal supply, and they can be coerced in to treatment. Open drug scenes like we have in San Francisco are not all allowed.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

If you were a junkie looking to earn a quick buck for your next fix and you decided to engage in petty theft how long do you think you'd get away with that kind of behavior in Portugal? Compare to SF. There's your answer. It's not the drugs that's different. It's that one jurisdiction actually gives a crap about making sure the ancillary problems (that are the reason drugs were ever criminalized to begin with) are mitigated.

guerrilla 4y ago
> If you were a junkie looking to earn a quick buck for your next fix and you decided to engage in petty theft how long do you think you'd get away with that kind of behavior in Portugal? No idea what you're trying to imply...
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  There's a whole prepackaged narrative for right wing types about drug harm reducement being so bad it's counterproductive. Example headlines: Why We Must Arrest Drug Addicts This is revealing as to where they are coming from: > People who want to kill themselves in the privacy of their own homes by smoking fentanyl should be free to do so. But people who use drugs, camp publicly, and break other laws stemming from their addictions, such as shoplifting, should be arrested. And a big part of it is lying about how other countries deal with drugs to try to paint liberal American cities in a bad light. https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/why-we-must-arrest-drug-addicts https://michaelshellenberger.substack.com/p/why-we-must-arre...

felipellrocha 4y ago