8 ms·

I really wonder why they don't introduce new hardware. I know the system is fairly complex (tons of TI frontends building a big steerable phased array antenna)

by bri3d 4y ago

I really wonder why they don't introduce new hardware. I know the system is fairly complex (tons of TI frontends building a big steerable phased array antenna), but the current hardware is awful for RV and really any use. There's a motor-oriented rectangular "dish" with a mandatory 1+ foot mounting arm, which stows in only one vertical orientation. Then, there are proprietary micro-HDMI esque connectors on both ends of a vendor provided fixed-length CAT5e from the dish to the router. For RVs, all of these are awful - the dish can't lie flat and must be brought inside for transit, and wiring is an unnecessary hassle. As a Starlink user, my take is pretty much that the core technology is revolutionary in specific areas, but the product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation. I wish they'd "unchain" the system with less bizarre hardware.

LegitShady 4y ago
>product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation they're not interested in competing on cost, because they have no real competition. implementation will improve I'm sure.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mbreese 4y ago
> Starlink for RVs is not designed for use while in motion. This is really their current service, but not strictly limited to only one location cell. So, you can use it whenever you reach your destination, but it isn’t designed to be used while you’re in motion.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- girvo 4y ago
  Though you absolutely can use it in motion, surprisingly, as long as you're moving in roughly a straight line (in rural areas).
  - SahAssar 4y ago
    Is the straight line caveat because the dish tries to predict motion by extrapolation?
    - girvo 4y ago
      To my best guess, yep that's exactly it. Lots of weaving turns in suburban areas seems to throw it's prediction off
    - Nextgrid 4y ago
      I can see plenty of room for improvement to optimize it even further. They could use accelerometers/gyroscopes to detect & predict "regular" movement (boats, etc) as well as current position to predict turns for land-based vehicles (from map data) so that the antenna can essentially "lead" the predicted movement (and maybe even do some magic with TCP flows to prepare them for predicted dropouts so they pick back up faster once the link is reestablished).
      - SahAssar 4y ago
        Yeah, I asked it because if that was the reason then it seems fixable.
walrus01 4y ago
There is already an aviation and Maritime mobile antenna unit in beta test. I've seen photos of it. You can also see the prototypes of the flush/conformal mount aviation terminal stuck to the side of some of the starship prototypes. The units that exist right now are meant to be relatively low cost and compete with consumer geostationary vsat terminals.
- judge2020 4y ago
  And v1 supposedly had a COGS of $1500 https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-1500-to-make-each-starlink-terminal-but-customers-will-only-be-charged-499-its-president-says/articleshow/82003604.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-...
  - unixhero 4y ago
    That is okay for a business
    - tenpies 4y ago
      The rate at which SpaceX does capital raises suggests otherwise. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/22/elon-musks-spacex-looks-to-raise-1point7-billion-in-new-funding.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/22/elon-musks-spacex-looks-to-r... It's going to be interesting to see in what shape Space X survives the end of the "free money" era.
      - herewulf 4y ago
        Considering their current position as a launch provider (and independent of Russian rockets/engines), I'd say they're going to do just fine.
        wongarsu 4y ago
        Let's say they make 30 million profit from each Falcon 9 launch. Last year they did 31 launches, but half of those were Starlink launches. That's 15x30 = $450 million profit off Falcon 9, plus whatever they made from Dragon. You're probably right that they would be fine as a company if they couldn't get any more money. SpaceX could operate at a decent profit and still do either Starlink or Starship at reduced pace. The "free money" just allows them to get to their goals a lot faster.
walrus01 4y ago
> but the product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation. Go compare it to what you will get for $150 per month from consumer grade geostationary based highly oversubscribed services. Viasat/Hughesnet/wild blue/etc. I could pull out my checkbook right now and start a contract for $6,000 per month on a 36mo term of dedicated SCPC geostationary capacity (requiring about $8500 of equipment at my site with a 1.8 meter dish, moderately powerful BUC and new modem) and not be able to come anywhere near matching the speeds and capability of my starlink terminal.
- bcrl 4y ago
  At least I can get service from the other providers. 2+ years on the waiting list and addresses in my area are now targeted for 2023.
  - walrus01 4y ago
    I can see how that would be very frustrating, do you have any local options for WISPs?
    - tjr225 4y ago
      WISPs come with their own challenges; namely time and line of sight to another node on the network. Heck I about bought a schoolhouse in rural Michigan until the WISP got back to me and told me they couldn’t provide me service because of the trees in the yard.
      - walrus01 4y ago
        I've seen people erect light duty 60' towers suitable for the wind load of one 60cm ptp microwave dish for a link to a local wisp, can be $2500-4500 all in including shipping, foundation, concrete work, etc.
        tjr225 4y ago
        That’s all fine and dandy; I’m happily on the west coast again instead. Happy it didn’t work out! That amount of uncertainty when buying a home and working from is not for me.
frankfrankfrank 4y ago
I am surprised you have not raised a major issue others have highlighted, that the dish is a MASSIVE energy hog in RV terms, where electricity is a premium when you are not hooked up to services where internet is usually also available, even if it is spotty.
- walrus01 4y ago
  2nd gen dish not so bad, it's about a 65W load if not in ice melt mode. The first gen is 85W to 150W depending on if heaters are on or not. But even so , yes, the cumulative kWh from a 65W load powered up for 1 month is a lot. Probably best handled on an RV that can mount multiple 360W class big pv panels on the roof.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    Hmm. Are PV cells transparent or opaque in this frequency?
- grecy 4y ago
  Elon said a few times they're working hard to get the power draw down.
trhway 4y ago
>the product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation Getting a phased array antenna with a gain enough to get range of more than 500km for $500 is mediocre in cost? I've got curious and googled Starlink antenna teardown - man, that looks like a fighter radar hardware, may be not of a 5G fighter, yet definitely not every 4G fighter has such a radar. There is no way it costs $500 even in BOM. The BOM itself must be several thousands at least. Starlink is basically giving away its hardware in order to get customers.
- judge2020 4y ago
  Supposedly $1500 for a V1 unit, the new rectangular dish hasn't been discussed afaik. https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-1500-to-make-each-starlink-terminal-but-customers-will-only-be-charged-499-its-president-says/articleshow/82003604.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-...
- bri3d 4y ago
  1) I was mostly referring to the monthly cost, although the upfront is steep as well. 2) As a customer I don't care if the product has a $5000 COGS to the provider or has unicorn blood in it, I care what it does. Compared to most WISPs, LTE/5G, or using the Internet access provided by a commercial campground or RV park, it's extremely expensive and really inconvenient. For example, my parents chose not to redeem their Starlink invitation as at home, they'd get similar performance to their existing WISP for over 2x the price and a really inconvenient installation process, and for the road, the cost just didn't justify the rare occasion they were at a campsite without LTE or commercially available Internet nearby. Compared to geostationary and existing constellation satellite solutions, Starlink is a massive winner, and competes well. But, those markets were already shrinking and IMO Starlink will eventually have to compete with terrestrial wireless solutions as well. To do that, they'll need a better cost and CPE model.
rlt 4y ago
In practice I'm not so sure it's such a bad thing for it to not be permanently mounted on the roof because of the importance of avoiding obstructions. Imagine your campsite is under a tree, but there's a clearing 50 feet away. Though I did see one clever installation under a cover on a spare tire on the roof (for the round Dishy). You could leave it up there and pull it down as needed to avoid obstructions when parked. The cable would even coil up nicely in the tire.

by bri3d 4y ago

LegitShady 4y ago

>product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation they're not interested in competing on cost, because they have no real competition. implementation will improve I'm sure.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mbreese 4y ago

> Starlink for RVs is not designed for use while in motion. This is really their current service, but not strictly limited to only one location cell. So, you can use it whenever you reach your destination, but it isn’t designed to be used while you’re in motion.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
girvo 4y ago
Though you absolutely can use it in motion, surprisingly, as long as you're moving in roughly a straight line (in rural areas).
- SahAssar 4y ago
  Is the straight line caveat because the dish tries to predict motion by extrapolation?
  - girvo 4y ago
    To my best guess, yep that's exactly it. Lots of weaving turns in suburban areas seems to throw it's prediction off
  - Nextgrid 4y ago
    I can see plenty of room for improvement to optimize it even further. They could use accelerometers/gyroscopes to detect & predict "regular" movement (boats, etc) as well as current position to predict turns for land-based vehicles (from map data) so that the antenna can essentially "lead" the predicted movement (and maybe even do some magic with TCP flows to prepare them for predicted dropouts so they pick back up faster once the link is reestablished).
    - SahAssar 4y ago
      Yeah, I asked it because if that was the reason then it seems fixable.

walrus01 4y ago

There is already an aviation and Maritime mobile antenna unit in beta test. I've seen photos of it. You can also see the prototypes of the flush/conformal mount aviation terminal stuck to the side of some of the starship prototypes. The units that exist right now are meant to be relatively low cost and compete with consumer geostationary vsat terminals.

judge2020 4y ago
And v1 supposedly had a COGS of $1500 https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-1500-to-make-each-starlink-terminal-but-customers-will-only-be-charged-499-its-president-says/articleshow/82003604.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-...
- unixhero 4y ago
  That is okay for a business
  - tenpies 4y ago
    The rate at which SpaceX does capital raises suggests otherwise. See: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/22/elon-musks-spacex-looks-to-raise-1point7-billion-in-new-funding.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/22/elon-musks-spacex-looks-to-r... It's going to be interesting to see in what shape Space X survives the end of the "free money" era.
    - herewulf 4y ago
      Considering their current position as a launch provider (and independent of Russian rockets/engines), I'd say they're going to do just fine.
      - wongarsu 4y ago
        Let's say they make 30 million profit from each Falcon 9 launch. Last year they did 31 launches, but half of those were Starlink launches. That's 15x30 = $450 million profit off Falcon 9, plus whatever they made from Dragon. You're probably right that they would be fine as a company if they couldn't get any more money. SpaceX could operate at a decent profit and still do either Starlink or Starship at reduced pace. The "free money" just allows them to get to their goals a lot faster.

walrus01 4y ago

> but the product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation. Go compare it to what you will get for $150 per month from consumer grade geostationary based highly oversubscribed services. Viasat/Hughesnet/wild blue/etc. I could pull out my checkbook right now and start a contract for $6,000 per month on a 36mo term of dedicated SCPC geostationary capacity (requiring about $8500 of equipment at my site with a 1.8 meter dish, moderately powerful BUC and new modem) and not be able to come anywhere near matching the speeds and capability of my starlink terminal.

bcrl 4y ago
At least I can get service from the other providers. 2+ years on the waiting list and addresses in my area are now targeted for 2023.
- walrus01 4y ago
  I can see how that would be very frustrating, do you have any local options for WISPs?
  - tjr225 4y ago
    WISPs come with their own challenges; namely time and line of sight to another node on the network. Heck I about bought a schoolhouse in rural Michigan until the WISP got back to me and told me they couldn’t provide me service because of the trees in the yard.
    - walrus01 4y ago
      I've seen people erect light duty 60' towers suitable for the wind load of one 60cm ptp microwave dish for a link to a local wisp, can be $2500-4500 all in including shipping, foundation, concrete work, etc.
      - tjr225 4y ago
        That’s all fine and dandy; I’m happily on the west coast again instead. Happy it didn’t work out! That amount of uncertainty when buying a home and working from is not for me.

frankfrankfrank 4y ago

I am surprised you have not raised a major issue others have highlighted, that the dish is a MASSIVE energy hog in RV terms, where electricity is a premium when you are not hooked up to services where internet is usually also available, even if it is spotty.

walrus01 4y ago
2nd gen dish not so bad, it's about a 65W load if not in ice melt mode. The first gen is 85W to 150W depending on if heaters are on or not. But even so , yes, the cumulative kWh from a 65W load powered up for 1 month is a lot. Probably best handled on an RV that can mount multiple 360W class big pv panels on the roof.
- ben_w 4y ago
  Hmm. Are PV cells transparent or opaque in this frequency?
grecy 4y ago
Elon said a few times they're working hard to get the power draw down.

trhway 4y ago

>the product itself is mediocre in both cost and implementation Getting a phased array antenna with a gain enough to get range of more than 500km for $500 is mediocre in cost? I've got curious and googled Starlink antenna teardown - man, that looks like a fighter radar hardware, may be not of a 5G fighter, yet definitely not every 4G fighter has such a radar. There is no way it costs $500 even in BOM. The BOM itself must be several thousands at least. Starlink is basically giving away its hardware in order to get customers.

judge2020 4y ago
Supposedly $1500 for a V1 unit, the new rectangular dish hasn't been discussed afaik. https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-1500-to-make-each-starlink-terminal-but-customers-will-only-be-charged-499-its-president-says/articleshow/82003604.cms https://www.businessinsider.in/tech/news/spacex-is-spending-...
bri3d 4y ago
1) I was mostly referring to the monthly cost, although the upfront is steep as well. 2) As a customer I don't care if the product has a $5000 COGS to the provider or has unicorn blood in it, I care what it does. Compared to most WISPs, LTE/5G, or using the Internet access provided by a commercial campground or RV park, it's extremely expensive and really inconvenient. For example, my parents chose not to redeem their Starlink invitation as at home, they'd get similar performance to their existing WISP for over 2x the price and a really inconvenient installation process, and for the road, the cost just didn't justify the rare occasion they were at a campsite without LTE or commercially available Internet nearby. Compared to geostationary and existing constellation satellite solutions, Starlink is a massive winner, and competes well. But, those markets were already shrinking and IMO Starlink will eventually have to compete with terrestrial wireless solutions as well. To do that, they'll need a better cost and CPE model.

rlt 4y ago

In practice I'm not so sure it's such a bad thing for it to not be permanently mounted on the roof because of the importance of avoiding obstructions. Imagine your campsite is under a tree, but there's a clearing 50 feet away. Though I did see one clever installation under a cover on a spare tire on the roof (for the round Dishy). You could leave it up there and pull it down as needed to avoid obstructions when parked. The cable would even coil up nicely in the tire.