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> Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I don't know. Dogs certainly

> Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I don't know. Dogs certainly know when things relate to them, when we are talking _about_ them and not _at_ them. It seems clear to me that they have an understanding that they are an entity. The question that we might not be able to answer is whether or not they can or do introspect about themselves. > and then extrapolate that to see we’re all the same. As our understanding grows, we have seen more and more evidence of behavior that we didn't really notice before (elephants mourning their dead - their version of it). It does not seem logical that humans suddenly develop 'consciousness' out of nowhere, and that there's a discrete jump between 'conscious' and 'not conscious' and that humans are somehow completely unique. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that insects have their own version of consciousness. Even if it means they will forever be incapable of developing philosophers in their particular evolution tree. Maybe our neocortex just allows us to communicate to others something that had been there for millions of years. It's easy to fall into the anthropomorphism trap though.

mikkergp 4y ago
Ok, so I just read a bunch of articles about animals grieving and it seems like there would probably be a lot of difficulty in agreeing on what it means to grieve, and what it means to be conscious and all sorts of other terms. I believe that my dog has emotions. I think he has feelings towards me and towards his brother and mother. But I also think he has minimal object permanence, and no ability to conceptualize my inner experience. He only knows what I'm feeling based on my face/actions/smells etc. I think if you took my dog and gave him to another family, he wouldn't think of me again, unless he heard my voice again in the futre. When she says a cat knows what it's like to be a cat, it's not that I don't think cat's have an inner experience. Maybe it's not that they aren't ware of what it's like to be a cat, as much as it is that they're not able to be aware of what it's like to be anything else. And those feel like the same thing to me. Oddly, after reading a few articles bout how elephants mourn their dead, I have sort of the opposite reaction, I assumed all animals did what elephants do and am kinda surprised they don't. Maybe I'm confusing consciousness with empathy or the ability to imagine another beings inner experience.
- soco 4y ago
  Cows have besties - they hang out with the same other cow and miss them when they're not around (miss like in looking everywhere and being apathetic otherwise). I guess the biggest problem with anthropomorphism is that mostly implies a black/white understanding - it's either like us or it's a nothing. While the signs I see point to a whole rainbow of nuances with a real difficulty to decide what deserves to be described in human terms and what not. I can agree that no animal is like the humans, but that doesn't make them unconscious or dumb - it only makes them non-human.

mikkergp 4y ago

Ok, so I just read a bunch of articles about animals grieving and it seems like there would probably be a lot of difficulty in agreeing on what it means to grieve, and what it means to be conscious and all sorts of other terms. I believe that my dog has emotions. I think he has feelings towards me and towards his brother and mother. But I also think he has minimal object permanence, and no ability to conceptualize my inner experience. He only knows what I'm feeling based on my face/actions/smells etc. I think if you took my dog and gave him to another family, he wouldn't think of me again, unless he heard my voice again in the futre. When she says a cat knows what it's like to be a cat, it's not that I don't think cat's have an inner experience. Maybe it's not that they aren't ware of what it's like to be a cat, as much as it is that they're not able to be aware of what it's like to be anything else. And those feel like the same thing to me. Oddly, after reading a few articles bout how elephants mourn their dead, I have sort of the opposite reaction, I assumed all animals did what elephants do and am kinda surprised they don't. Maybe I'm confusing consciousness with empathy or the ability to imagine another beings inner experience.

soco 4y ago
Cows have besties - they hang out with the same other cow and miss them when they're not around (miss like in looking everywhere and being apathetic otherwise). I guess the biggest problem with anthropomorphism is that mostly implies a black/white understanding - it's either like us or it's a nothing. While the signs I see point to a whole rainbow of nuances with a real difficulty to decide what deserves to be described in human terms and what not. I can agree that no animal is like the humans, but that doesn't make them unconscious or dumb - it only makes them non-human.