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I'll try and end here... I am a healthy human not obsessed with Internet debates, I swear! :'D I'm glad you see my guard against this slippery slope, but I'm d

I'll try and end here... I am a healthy human not obsessed with Internet debates, I swear! :'D I'm glad you see my guard against this slippery slope, but I'm disheartened that what is patently obvious to me is not to others. But in good faith... What other species has set up such an intricate and varied system of communication? Of laws? Of art, poetry, and music? Of research and insight into the natural world that has propelled us to space? And all of which have been developed across language and culture barriers? Yes, wolves howl together. Dolphins communicate and socialize. Chimpanzees and dogs display complex emotions. But the order of magnitude of complexity is nowhere even close to humanity's consciousness.

nobody9999 4y ago
>What other species has set up such an intricate and varied system of communication? Of laws? Of art, poetry, and music? Of research and insight into the natural world that has propelled us to space? And all of which have been developed across language and culture barriers? I'd posit that such human activities imply sentience and not just consciousness. Certainly sentient beings need to have consciousness, but the converse isn't equivalent. Many life forms have consciousness. Dolphins, cats, most humans, chimps, gorillas and numerous others. What the non-humans don't have (or at least not, in our fumbling investigations, detected) is sentience. That's not the same thing as consciousness.
burnished 4y ago
>>Yes, wolves howl together. Dolphins communicate and socialize. Chimpanzees and dogs display complex emotions. But the order of magnitude of complexity is nowhere even close to humanity's consciousness. You've made my point quite well, the difference is in degree, not kind. I think other forms of life have internal experiences that are similar to yours or mine. I also think the natural observation would be that our internal processes are more complex, vastly so in some cases. I also think that the reason that we draw the border such that man is one one side and all other life on another is theological in origin. Christian theology would need to defend man's place in the cosmos. I cannot think of any question from nature that would need this answer however. Does that make sense? We don't typically see a trend or pattern and draw some cutoff point on it without good reason, and I don't see what the good reason would be in this case.
exodust 4y ago
> "propelled us to space" If the cost associated with all that starts to eat away at the health of the planet, the space adventures you hold in high regard are nothing but short-term entertainment.

nobody9999 4y ago

>What other species has set up such an intricate and varied system of communication? Of laws? Of art, poetry, and music? Of research and insight into the natural world that has propelled us to space? And all of which have been developed across language and culture barriers? I'd posit that such human activities imply sentience and not just consciousness. Certainly sentient beings need to have consciousness, but the converse isn't equivalent. Many life forms have consciousness. Dolphins, cats, most humans, chimps, gorillas and numerous others. What the non-humans don't have (or at least not, in our fumbling investigations, detected) is sentience. That's not the same thing as consciousness.

burnished 4y ago

>>Yes, wolves howl together. Dolphins communicate and socialize. Chimpanzees and dogs display complex emotions. But the order of magnitude of complexity is nowhere even close to humanity's consciousness. You've made my point quite well, the difference is in degree, not kind. I think other forms of life have internal experiences that are similar to yours or mine. I also think the natural observation would be that our internal processes are more complex, vastly so in some cases. I also think that the reason that we draw the border such that man is one one side and all other life on another is theological in origin. Christian theology would need to defend man's place in the cosmos. I cannot think of any question from nature that would need this answer however. Does that make sense? We don't typically see a trend or pattern and draw some cutoff point on it without good reason, and I don't see what the good reason would be in this case.

exodust 4y ago

> "propelled us to space" If the cost associated with all that starts to eat away at the health of the planet, the space adventures you hold in high regard are nothing but short-term entertainment.