4 ms·

Don't forget the United States and a succession of puppet regimes in South Vietnam/Cambodia lost to the North Vietnamese/Vietnamese despite managing to inflict

Don't forget the United States and a succession of puppet regimes in South Vietnam/Cambodia lost to the North Vietnamese/Vietnamese despite managing to inflict losses of approximately 100x enemy and civilians and other countries residents (the favorite accounting method of measuring success at the time) by 1980.

ece 4y ago
Maybe the Vietnamese/Chinese intelligence was better than the US intelligence.
leereeves 4y ago
That was a political decision, not a military defeat. Politicians never allowed the military to attack the north. Instead, the military was given a purely defensive mission, which they performed successfully, until politicians ordered them to leave.
- lazide 4y ago
  It's no less a military defeat than Russia's in Ukraine. When the military is bogged down and draining the nations treasury and making the gov't look bad, the political decision is inevitable.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    The difference is that Russia tried to invade Kiev, but America never tried to invade North Vietnam. As for "draining the nations treasury", US military spending actually increased after the end of the Vietnam War.
    - lazide 4y ago
      The US was bombing Cambodia, Laos, North Vietnam, etc. all the way up to Hanoi [https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/2eae918ca40a4bd7a55390bba4735cdb https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/2eae918ca40a4bd7a55390b...] It may not have been tanks on the ground, but that is small consolation for those blown to bits - even still today due to unexploded ordnance. It also led to outsized inflation (which contributed to the out of control inflation in the early 80's, along with the increase in other military spending to 'fight the cold war') and cost an inflation adjusted $1 trln dollars. The US wasn't broke, but it contributed to the giant inflation spike that then had to be tamped down with sky high fed fund rates. It wasn't without impact.
      - leereeves 4y ago
        > cost an inflation adjusted $1 trln dollars Over nine years, whereas the US spends nearly $1 trln dollars every year on the military now.
        lazide 4y ago
        Something to be said for not being run by a kleptocrat I guess?
- mr_toad 4y ago
  They never attacked north Vietnam by land. They bombed it into the dust, but China rebuilt it all. Politically there was no will to occupy North Vietnam and end up facing China directly.
  - leereeves 4y ago
    Thanks for bringing that up. It gives me an opportunity to introduce this statement from the relevant Wikipedia page, which I think sums up the situation pithily: > The limited goals entailed in American foreign policy and the military's goal of total victory were simply not reconcilable. The great conundrum had then become how to defeat North Vietnam without defeating North Vietnam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder
  - w7 4y ago
    Did China help Vietnam rebuild before or after China declared war on Vietnam? Relationship was already tense during the US-Vietnam war between China and Vietnam, it only took 4 years after the US-Vietnam war for China to declare war, and from what I understand it was the Soviet Union that helped rebuild after that point. China's support of Vietnam during the US-Vietnam war was mainly to try and reduce US influence. China literally looted and burned parts of Northern Vietnam on their way out. Interestingly it has some analogs to the current Russian invasion of Ukraine https://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-south-china-sea/ https://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-so... China believed it would be a quick and easy conflict where they would blitz Hanoi. Instead they fought with outdated and ineffective tactics, failed to use their air forces properly, and could not make it that deep into north Vietnam before being stonewalled by the more experienced Vietnamese. In response China began brutalizing the countryside out of spite, burning crops, killing civilians on sight, booby-trapping civilian structures, demolishing factories, killing livestock.

ece 4y ago

Maybe the Vietnamese/Chinese intelligence was better than the US intelligence.

leereeves 4y ago

That was a political decision, not a military defeat. Politicians never allowed the military to attack the north. Instead, the military was given a purely defensive mission, which they performed successfully, until politicians ordered them to leave.

lazide 4y ago
It's no less a military defeat than Russia's in Ukraine. When the military is bogged down and draining the nations treasury and making the gov't look bad, the political decision is inevitable.
- leereeves 4y ago
  The difference is that Russia tried to invade Kiev, but America never tried to invade North Vietnam. As for "draining the nations treasury", US military spending actually increased after the end of the Vietnam War.
  - lazide 4y ago
    The US was bombing Cambodia, Laos, North Vietnam, etc. all the way up to Hanoi [https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/2eae918ca40a4bd7a55390bba4735cdb https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/2eae918ca40a4bd7a55390b...] It may not have been tanks on the ground, but that is small consolation for those blown to bits - even still today due to unexploded ordnance. It also led to outsized inflation (which contributed to the out of control inflation in the early 80's, along with the increase in other military spending to 'fight the cold war') and cost an inflation adjusted $1 trln dollars. The US wasn't broke, but it contributed to the giant inflation spike that then had to be tamped down with sky high fed fund rates. It wasn't without impact.
    - leereeves 4y ago
      > cost an inflation adjusted $1 trln dollars Over nine years, whereas the US spends nearly $1 trln dollars every year on the military now.
      - lazide 4y ago
        Something to be said for not being run by a kleptocrat I guess?
mr_toad 4y ago
They never attacked north Vietnam by land. They bombed it into the dust, but China rebuilt it all. Politically there was no will to occupy North Vietnam and end up facing China directly.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Thanks for bringing that up. It gives me an opportunity to introduce this statement from the relevant Wikipedia page, which I think sums up the situation pithily: > The limited goals entailed in American foreign policy and the military's goal of total victory were simply not reconcilable. The great conundrum had then become how to defeat North Vietnam without defeating North Vietnam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Rolling_Thunder
- w7 4y ago
  Did China help Vietnam rebuild before or after China declared war on Vietnam? Relationship was already tense during the US-Vietnam war between China and Vietnam, it only took 4 years after the US-Vietnam war for China to declare war, and from what I understand it was the Soviet Union that helped rebuild after that point. China's support of Vietnam during the US-Vietnam war was mainly to try and reduce US influence. China literally looted and burned parts of Northern Vietnam on their way out. Interestingly it has some analogs to the current Russian invasion of Ukraine https://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-south-china-sea/ https://time.com/100417/china-vietnam-sino-vietnamese-war-so... China believed it would be a quick and easy conflict where they would blitz Hanoi. Instead they fought with outdated and ineffective tactics, failed to use their air forces properly, and could not make it that deep into north Vietnam before being stonewalled by the more experienced Vietnamese. In response China began brutalizing the countryside out of spite, burning crops, killing civilians on sight, booby-trapping civilian structures, demolishing factories, killing livestock.