4 ms·

“ My cat almost certainly has a sense of what it’s like to be a cat” Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs

“ My cat almost certainly has a sense of what it’s like to be a cat” Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. The weirdest thing about these studies to me, is they always latch on to the most basic idea of “consciousness” and then extrapolate that to see we’re all the same. In a philosophical/spiritual way I’m all about the idea of modesty and we’re all connected and I’m/we’re not special. But in practical way I don’t see the “actually insects are just like people.”

goatlover 4y ago
Not just like. The article says as much. Bat consciousness would be different from human consciousness, in part they use echolocation to navigate. Insects would be even more different, if they are conscious. Consciousness being some subjective experience of self and the world. Seeing color, feeling pain, being something more than an automaton with an inner life. That subjectivity could be alien to us. Or it could be similar in some ways and very different in others. A cat isn't going to experience the world quite the same as we do, but they are mammals and more closely related than bees.
jbay808 4y ago
> I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I'd consider it more from the perspective of Occam's razor and prior probabilities. You have a brain, you are alive, you have goals, make plans, learn, perceive the world, make predictions about the behaviour of other agents, and eat food. You are also conscious. My default assumption would be that anything else that does the former things would also have the latter trait, until I encounter some particular evidence that they don't.
giantg2 4y ago
"I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware." I think it depends on how deep we are trying to go. Most people are downright terrible at true self awareness and self evaluation.
- TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
  Dogs do not recognize themselves in mirrors. No self-awareness?
  - exodust 4y ago
    They might recognize themselves but have no interest in how they look. In a split second they see themselves in mirror, but it's not useful information. The scent on the surface of the mirror would be far more interesting than their own reflection.
deleted 4y ago
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outworlder 4y ago
> Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I don't know. Dogs certainly know when things relate to them, when we are talking _about_ them and not _at_ them. It seems clear to me that they have an understanding that they are an entity. The question that we might not be able to answer is whether or not they can or do introspect about themselves. > and then extrapolate that to see we’re all the same. As our understanding grows, we have seen more and more evidence of behavior that we didn't really notice before (elephants mourning their dead - their version of it). It does not seem logical that humans suddenly develop 'consciousness' out of nowhere, and that there's a discrete jump between 'conscious' and 'not conscious' and that humans are somehow completely unique. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that insects have their own version of consciousness. Even if it means they will forever be incapable of developing philosophers in their particular evolution tree. Maybe our neocortex just allows us to communicate to others something that had been there for millions of years. It's easy to fall into the anthropomorphism trap though.
- mikkergp 4y ago
  Ok, so I just read a bunch of articles about animals grieving and it seems like there would probably be a lot of difficulty in agreeing on what it means to grieve, and what it means to be conscious and all sorts of other terms. I believe that my dog has emotions. I think he has feelings towards me and towards his brother and mother. But I also think he has minimal object permanence, and no ability to conceptualize my inner experience. He only knows what I'm feeling based on my face/actions/smells etc. I think if you took my dog and gave him to another family, he wouldn't think of me again, unless he heard my voice again in the futre. When she says a cat knows what it's like to be a cat, it's not that I don't think cat's have an inner experience. Maybe it's not that they aren't ware of what it's like to be a cat, as much as it is that they're not able to be aware of what it's like to be anything else. And those feel like the same thing to me. Oddly, after reading a few articles bout how elephants mourn their dead, I have sort of the opposite reaction, I assumed all animals did what elephants do and am kinda surprised they don't. Maybe I'm confusing consciousness with empathy or the ability to imagine another beings inner experience.

goatlover 4y ago

Not just like. The article says as much. Bat consciousness would be different from human consciousness, in part they use echolocation to navigate. Insects would be even more different, if they are conscious. Consciousness being some subjective experience of self and the world. Seeing color, feeling pain, being something more than an automaton with an inner life. That subjectivity could be alien to us. Or it could be similar in some ways and very different in others. A cat isn't going to experience the world quite the same as we do, but they are mammals and more closely related than bees.

jbay808 4y ago

> I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I'd consider it more from the perspective of Occam's razor and prior probabilities. You have a brain, you are alive, you have goals, make plans, learn, perceive the world, make predictions about the behaviour of other agents, and eat food. You are also conscious. My default assumption would be that anything else that does the former things would also have the latter trait, until I encounter some particular evidence that they don't.

giantg2 4y ago

"I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware." I think it depends on how deep we are trying to go. Most people are downright terrible at true self awareness and self evaluation.

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
Dogs do not recognize themselves in mirrors. No self-awareness?
- exodust 4y ago
  They might recognize themselves but have no interest in how they look. In a split second they see themselves in mirror, but it's not useful information. The scent on the surface of the mirror would be far more interesting than their own reflection.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

outworlder 4y ago

> Is this true? I always thought this was anthropomorphism. I have dogs and I thought dogs more just “are” rather than self aware. I don't know. Dogs certainly know when things relate to them, when we are talking _about_ them and not _at_ them. It seems clear to me that they have an understanding that they are an entity. The question that we might not be able to answer is whether or not they can or do introspect about themselves. > and then extrapolate that to see we’re all the same. As our understanding grows, we have seen more and more evidence of behavior that we didn't really notice before (elephants mourning their dead - their version of it). It does not seem logical that humans suddenly develop 'consciousness' out of nowhere, and that there's a discrete jump between 'conscious' and 'not conscious' and that humans are somehow completely unique. It would not surprise me in the least to learn that insects have their own version of consciousness. Even if it means they will forever be incapable of developing philosophers in their particular evolution tree. Maybe our neocortex just allows us to communicate to others something that had been there for millions of years. It's easy to fall into the anthropomorphism trap though.

mikkergp 4y ago
Ok, so I just read a bunch of articles about animals grieving and it seems like there would probably be a lot of difficulty in agreeing on what it means to grieve, and what it means to be conscious and all sorts of other terms. I believe that my dog has emotions. I think he has feelings towards me and towards his brother and mother. But I also think he has minimal object permanence, and no ability to conceptualize my inner experience. He only knows what I'm feeling based on my face/actions/smells etc. I think if you took my dog and gave him to another family, he wouldn't think of me again, unless he heard my voice again in the futre. When she says a cat knows what it's like to be a cat, it's not that I don't think cat's have an inner experience. Maybe it's not that they aren't ware of what it's like to be a cat, as much as it is that they're not able to be aware of what it's like to be anything else. And those feel like the same thing to me. Oddly, after reading a few articles bout how elephants mourn their dead, I have sort of the opposite reaction, I assumed all animals did what elephants do and am kinda surprised they don't. Maybe I'm confusing consciousness with empathy or the ability to imagine another beings inner experience.