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Here is Milton Friedman discussing a politically charged topic with Bernie Sanders in a very civil manner. (though Bernie doesn't speak much) https://www.youtu

Here is Milton Friedman discussing a politically charged topic with Bernie Sanders in a very civil manner. (though Bernie doesn't speak much) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sElz_P6QsZo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sElz_P6QsZo (ignore the inflammatory title and intro screen) Civility and decorum are what is missing today. And if it was taught in our schools today, and valued in society at large, maybe it we could still have debates like this.

daenz 4y ago
That looks absolutely nothing like a young Bernie Sanders, but there seems to be multiple places online claiming it is him.
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  That is interesting, an image search for "young bernie sanders" does bring up a distinctly different looking face. (one compares him to Jemaine Clement) Thank you for point this out. But, it still is an example of civil discourse. Another is Friedman arguing (civil, but a little more tense) with a young Michael Moore. (they do talk past each other a little) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7Fi8I-qOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7Fi8I-qOk (ignore inflammatory title/intro again)
happytoexplain 4y ago
True - and it's complicated by the popularity of pointing to other people's rationality and claiming it as your own in an attack on or exaggeration of the opinions and behaviors of others. Look at all the people in the comments who ostensibly want this, and yet are behaving exactly like all the people supposedly being contrasted with the example in the video. It's not "rationality is missing from politics" to most people, it's "rationality is missing from my political enemies".
drewcoo 4y ago
> Civility and decorum are what is missing today. That's what got us Joe Biden, who mostly has the same policies as Donald Trump, is a democrat who has always been a lot like a pretty conservative republican, but says nice things and only sniffs girls' hair instead of grabbing by the _____. Downvote for that if you like but the lesser of two appalling characters is still appalling. What's missing is a deeper understanding of issues, a willingness to understand not the other side but all sides of an issue, and a recognition that meeting in the middle is deciding not to decide. We need brains, backbones, and a willingness to avoid partisanship.
- happytoexplain 4y ago
  How appalling does the representative of a political party have to be to be able to call them appalling and also espouse "a willingness to understand" in politics in the same breath without necessarily being hypocritical? That sounds sarcastic, but it's absolutely a real, pragmatic question (with no concrete answer, really).
  - drewcoo 4y ago
    That's intentionally equating completely different things just to manufacture "hypocrisy." Harm to others with political inclinations. But you knew that, right?
    - robonerd 4y ago
      That answers little. What constitutes harm is subjective (and obviously political.) It varies greatly depending on who you ask and where you're at.
mdp2021 4y ago
> Civility and decorum ... taught in our schools today "Education" means "leading", think "as if hand in hand, in time": it is a matter (in this case) of transmission through /example/ - not of passing information. Then, you can bring awareness to it: and awareness raising passes through showing that one way is higher and the other is low. You must live that example. The rarer the example, the greater the evidence of a social crisis. Some noticed, the crisis in higher culture is surely a damage, but it is that in the common culture of pyramidal society (the brother, the teacher etc.) that is mining the texture. > maybe... we could still have debates like this Some people are getting warier, as if in the terms legendarily attributed to Mark Twain: "Don’t argue with a fool, or the listener will say there is a pair of you". To debate, you need adequate interlocutors - if Umberto Eco imagined discussing with a six years old (a "new modern possibility"), he wanted the different credentials to be patent. But actually, the matter has never been that simple. I have recently seen the initial part of the "Gore Vidal vs William Buckley" movie, Best of Enemies (Gordon; Neville, 2015) and I found the first debate immediately embarrassing.
- RobertRoberts 4y ago
  Why was the first debate embarrassing? IMDB notes indicate it was "spectacle over substance", is this what you are referring to?
  - mdp2021 4y ago
    > Why was the first debate embarrassing? It was "mud wrestling in a suit" - a pretense of civilization revealing very low urges in action; large investments in refinements spent to trick the surface. I could analyze, and I could have already written a short essay from reading your question to submitting the post, but insistence on the low unfortunately also promotes it. If you want to take a look at it, it is on YT.
panarky 4y ago
Yes, "civility and decorum" are the solution to the refusal of an entire political party to accept the results of an election and their supporters violently storming the capitol.
- leereeves 4y ago
  Civility is the only solution, because behavior like that is not partisan. It's what happens when civility is removed from politics. Lest you think there is something uniquely "evil" about Republicans, here's a bit of recent (but overlooked) history from the Washington Post: "Democrats were for occupying capitols before they were against it" > 10 years ago, Democrats embraced the left-wing mob that occupied the state Capitol in Madison. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) praised the occupiers for an “impressive show of democracy in action” and tweeted as they assaulted the Capitol that she continued “to stand in solidarity” with the union activists. Some highlights from the article: > The small contingent of capitol police was quickly overwhelmed. Protesters ripped the hinges of an antique oak door at the State Street entrance and streamed inside. > The police retreated in the face of the horde, giving up the first floor, then the second, [as protestors] began searching for the Republican senators who had dared to defy the will of the unions.” > police sneaked them out through an underground tunnel to a government building across the street. But a Democratic representative posted on social media that the Republican senators were escaping through the tunnels, so when the senators came up into the lobby, the mob was there waiting for them. > The senators hid under a stairwell, out of view, while the police ordered a city bus to pull up in front of the building. Officers then formed a human wall on the sidewalk, parting the sea of protesters and creating a pathway for the senators to reach the bus.” Once the senators were on board, “the mob on the street began punching the windows and shaking the vehicle. … The police told the senators and staff inside to keep their heads down in case a window shattered.” > Thankfully, no one was killed. But during the course of the occupation, Walker received a steady stream of death threats against him and his wife, including one that promised to “gut her like a deer” and one threatening to kill his sons. Police found dozens of .22-caliber bullets scattered across the Capitol grounds. The occupiers drew chalk outlines of fake dead bodies etched with Walker’s name on the floor, and carried signs that read “Death to tyrants,” “The only good Republican is a dead Republican” and one with picture of him in crosshairs with the words, “Don’t retreat, Reload.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats...

daenz 4y ago

That looks absolutely nothing like a young Bernie Sanders, but there seems to be multiple places online claiming it is him.

RobertRoberts 4y ago
That is interesting, an image search for "young bernie sanders" does bring up a distinctly different looking face. (one compares him to Jemaine Clement) Thank you for point this out. But, it still is an example of civil discourse. Another is Friedman arguing (civil, but a little more tense) with a young Michael Moore. (they do talk past each other a little) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7Fi8I-qOk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb7Fi8I-qOk (ignore inflammatory title/intro again)

happytoexplain 4y ago

True - and it's complicated by the popularity of pointing to other people's rationality and claiming it as your own in an attack on or exaggeration of the opinions and behaviors of others. Look at all the people in the comments who ostensibly want this, and yet are behaving exactly like all the people supposedly being contrasted with the example in the video. It's not "rationality is missing from politics" to most people, it's "rationality is missing from my political enemies".

drewcoo 4y ago

> Civility and decorum are what is missing today. That's what got us Joe Biden, who mostly has the same policies as Donald Trump, is a democrat who has always been a lot like a pretty conservative republican, but says nice things and only sniffs girls' hair instead of grabbing by the _____. Downvote for that if you like but the lesser of two appalling characters is still appalling. What's missing is a deeper understanding of issues, a willingness to understand not the other side but all sides of an issue, and a recognition that meeting in the middle is deciding not to decide. We need brains, backbones, and a willingness to avoid partisanship.

happytoexplain 4y ago
How appalling does the representative of a political party have to be to be able to call them appalling and also espouse "a willingness to understand" in politics in the same breath without necessarily being hypocritical? That sounds sarcastic, but it's absolutely a real, pragmatic question (with no concrete answer, really).
- drewcoo 4y ago
  That's intentionally equating completely different things just to manufacture "hypocrisy." Harm to others with political inclinations. But you knew that, right?
  - robonerd 4y ago
    That answers little. What constitutes harm is subjective (and obviously political.) It varies greatly depending on who you ask and where you're at.

mdp2021 4y ago

> Civility and decorum ... taught in our schools today "Education" means "leading", think "as if hand in hand, in time": it is a matter (in this case) of transmission through /example/ - not of passing information. Then, you can bring awareness to it: and awareness raising passes through showing that one way is higher and the other is low. You must live that example. The rarer the example, the greater the evidence of a social crisis. Some noticed, the crisis in higher culture is surely a damage, but it is that in the common culture of pyramidal society (the brother, the teacher etc.) that is mining the texture. > maybe... we could still have debates like this Some people are getting warier, as if in the terms legendarily attributed to Mark Twain: "Don’t argue with a fool, or the listener will say there is a pair of you". To debate, you need adequate interlocutors - if Umberto Eco imagined discussing with a six years old (a "new modern possibility"), he wanted the different credentials to be patent. But actually, the matter has never been that simple. I have recently seen the initial part of the "Gore Vidal vs William Buckley" movie, Best of Enemies (Gordon; Neville, 2015) and I found the first debate immediately embarrassing.

RobertRoberts 4y ago
Why was the first debate embarrassing? IMDB notes indicate it was "spectacle over substance", is this what you are referring to?
- mdp2021 4y ago
  > Why was the first debate embarrassing? It was "mud wrestling in a suit" - a pretense of civilization revealing very low urges in action; large investments in refinements spent to trick the surface. I could analyze, and I could have already written a short essay from reading your question to submitting the post, but insistence on the low unfortunately also promotes it. If you want to take a look at it, it is on YT.

panarky 4y ago

Yes, "civility and decorum" are the solution to the refusal of an entire political party to accept the results of an election and their supporters violently storming the capitol.

leereeves 4y ago
Civility is the only solution, because behavior like that is not partisan. It's what happens when civility is removed from politics. Lest you think there is something uniquely "evil" about Republicans, here's a bit of recent (but overlooked) history from the Washington Post: "Democrats were for occupying capitols before they were against it" > 10 years ago, Democrats embraced the left-wing mob that occupied the state Capitol in Madison. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) praised the occupiers for an “impressive show of democracy in action” and tweeted as they assaulted the Capitol that she continued “to stand in solidarity” with the union activists. Some highlights from the article: > The small contingent of capitol police was quickly overwhelmed. Protesters ripped the hinges of an antique oak door at the State Street entrance and streamed inside. > The police retreated in the face of the horde, giving up the first floor, then the second, [as protestors] began searching for the Republican senators who had dared to defy the will of the unions.” > police sneaked them out through an underground tunnel to a government building across the street. But a Democratic representative posted on social media that the Republican senators were escaping through the tunnels, so when the senators came up into the lobby, the mob was there waiting for them. > The senators hid under a stairwell, out of view, while the police ordered a city bus to pull up in front of the building. Officers then formed a human wall on the sidewalk, parting the sea of protesters and creating a pathway for the senators to reach the bus.” Once the senators were on board, “the mob on the street began punching the windows and shaking the vehicle. … The police told the senators and staff inside to keep their heads down in case a window shattered.” > Thankfully, no one was killed. But during the course of the occupation, Walker received a steady stream of death threats against him and his wife, including one that promised to “gut her like a deer” and one threatening to kill his sons. Police found dozens of .22-caliber bullets scattered across the Capitol grounds. The occupiers drew chalk outlines of fake dead bodies etched with Walker’s name on the floor, and carried signs that read “Death to tyrants,” “The only good Republican is a dead Republican” and one with picture of him in crosshairs with the words, “Don’t retreat, Reload.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats-were-occupying-capitols-before-they-were-against-it/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/01/14/democrats...