3 ms·

Air superiority during WW1 had an almost negligible effect on the outcome of the war. Can you name a single battle where aerial reconnaissance was decisive, or

by greedo 4y ago

Air superiority during WW1 had an almost negligible effect on the outcome of the war. Can you name a single battle where aerial reconnaissance was decisive, or provided more value than artillery, machine guns or proto-tanks? Even in WW2 where air power was far more powerful, it's still debated how much it contributed to success.

KineticLensman 4y ago
> Even in WW2 where air power was far more powerful, it's still debated how much it contributed to success. The allies certainly had tactical air superiority in the last few months of the war, which hammered German Armour, but didn't in itself wipe out dogged resistance. The Luftwaffe was pretty scarce over the battlefields because it was occupied trying to stop the bomber offensive over Germany itself. The bombers themselves didn't really begin to properly dismantle German manufacturing until 1945. So air power did contribute to success in the end, but not as anticipated before the war.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  Air power did little to destroy German industry, that is correct. But, and this is a big but, it was very successful at denying the German military gasoline, without which its military machine was crippled. The Air Force was very, very effective at supporting the ground troops. Whenever the soldiers got stuck on the ground, they'd call in the P-51s to wreck whatever was blocking them. The tanks and Wiederstanden were highly vulnerable to air attack, as well as getting their supply lines cut off. The Kriegsmarine's super battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz were destroyed by air attack. Japan's super battleship Yamato suffered a similar fate.
  - greedo 4y ago
    Germany ran out of gas because it didn't have a domestic source, and couldn't seize it in the Middle East, nor in the Caucasus region. The Army Air Corps was decent at interdiction missions (trains etc.) and hunting tanks when given free reign; but they were tied to escort missions for far too long. Considering how much money and manpower was invested in the 8th AF, the returns were marginal. German industry was accelerating production until the very end of the war, and proved very resilient to strategic bombing. The Bismarck, Tirpitz etc were all a waste of resources and never did much to influence the war other than to tie down the Home Fleet. The sinking of the Yamato and its sister ship Musahi were non-consequential to the outcome of the war.
    - WalterBright 4y ago
      Germany's oil supply came largely from Ploiești which was destroyed by Allied bombing. The lack of gasoline, particularly high octane gas, crippled the Luftwaffe. High octane gas, in plentiful supply, led to Allied fighters having a huge performance advantage over the Luftwaffe fighters. The battleships did not influence the war because of air power. Without airplanes, the battleships would have carpeted the Atlantic seabed with the convoys that kept Britain in the war. The Yamato also became ineffective because of air power.
      - greedo 4y ago
        My grand-uncle flew in B-24s on the Ploesti raid (Operation Tidal Wave). It had no effect on Axis petroleum production. It's considered one of the biggest failures in WW2 airpower. Airpower had minimal affect on stopping the Kriegsmarine from wreaking havoc in the Atlantic. The German fleet was too weak, in fact the sacrifice of the Hood led to the demise of the Bismarck. If it wasn't a torpedo from a Swordfish jamming the rudder, the rest of the Home Fleet would have crushed it eventually. The Graf Spee fared no better in the South Atlantic. The Yamato (and Musahi) were part of a mistaken Mahanian strategy for a single decisive battle (akin to Tsushima) that would settle the entire Pacific campaign. What really one the war in the Pacific was the USN submarine fleet which put a stranglehold on Japan.
        WalterBright 4y ago
        > Airpower had minimal affect on stopping the Kriegsmarine from wreaking havoc in the Atlantic. This seriously underestimates it. Airplanes were effectively used to locate and track U-Boots and other ships, vectoring in a destroyer to sink them. Airplanes located and tracked the Bismarck, airplanes crippled it so it could not maneuver, and then the British navy pounded it into oblivion. Without Allied airplanes, the Bismarck could have sailed into any convoy and sunk it all with near impunity. I.e. with aircraft, the Kriegsmarine could not hide. Neither could the Tirpitz. The US wrecked Japan's fleet at Midway, all done with air power. Aircraft did a lot of the sinkings in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. More info on German oil: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b66lm/wherehow_did_nazi_germany_get_access_to_enough/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b66lm/where...
WalterBright 4y ago
> WW1 It's discussed in detail in the two volume set "Winged Mars" by Cuneo. The crux is being able to see where the enemy was weak, and you could deny the enemy seeing where you were strong. That's what the focus (pun intended) of the air war in WW1 was all about. > Even in WW2 Not in the books I read about WW2. See the battle of Pearl Harbor, Midway, etc. Air power ended the U-Boot threat. The Battle of the Bulge was over for the Wehrmacht the moment the weather cleared and the Air Force could fly. The destruction of the German oil fields was decisive for the Allied victory. See the Battle of Britain - Hitler abandoned plans to invade Britain, knowing he could not do so without air supremacy. Eisenhower knew that D-Day would not work unless the Luftwaffe was suppressed. Air power ended Rommel's campaign in Africa (cut off the Afrika Korp's supplies).
- greedo 4y ago
  Pearl Harbor was a temporary tactical success, but a strategic failure. The IJN failed to destroy the fuel storage at Pearl, or to block the harbor. They also failed to destroy much of the maintenance and repair facilities. Midway would have been an abject failure for the USN if it weren't for the codebreakers. The B-17s at Midway and most of the other aircraft were pretty useless in the battle itself. This was one of the closest naval engagements in the war, and the US was lucky to come away with the victory. But in the end, the defeat of the Kido Butai wasn't a necessary requirement for defeating Japan. The Battle of the Atlantic was also more dependent upon code breaking than aircraft for success. Combined with the convoy system, the U-boats effect peaked in 1942. After that it was all downhill. Air power in the form of B-24s and escort carriers helped, but were not instrumental. And the Battle of Britain, there was no chance Germany could ever successfully invade the British Isle. They simply didn't have the Navy to cross the channel. Air power helped in many campaigns, but was not instrumental in the outcome of the war.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    > They simply didn't have the Navy to cross the channel. The plan was to crush the RAF, which would then have made it easy for the Luftwaffe to prevent the Royal Navy from stopping them from crossing. Ships without air cover are nothing but big, fat, juicy targets, which was proven time and again in WW2. For another example, a single Stuka sank a Russian cruiser in WW2. The objective of the attack on Pearl Harbor was to destroy the aircraft carriers, not the battleships. The attack was a failure because the carriers were not there. Midway was the next attempt to destroy the US aircraft carriers. Instead, it destroyed Japan's carriers, and that was the end of Japan's naval ambitions. B-17s were never designed to attack ships. Frankly, I have no idea why they were at Midway. Maybe long range reconnaissance.

by greedo 4y ago

KineticLensman 4y ago

> Even in WW2 where air power was far more powerful, it's still debated how much it contributed to success. The allies certainly had tactical air superiority in the last few months of the war, which hammered German Armour, but didn't in itself wipe out dogged resistance. The Luftwaffe was pretty scarce over the battlefields because it was occupied trying to stop the bomber offensive over Germany itself. The bombers themselves didn't really begin to properly dismantle German manufacturing until 1945. So air power did contribute to success in the end, but not as anticipated before the war.

WalterBright 4y ago
Air power did little to destroy German industry, that is correct. But, and this is a big but, it was very successful at denying the German military gasoline, without which its military machine was crippled. The Air Force was very, very effective at supporting the ground troops. Whenever the soldiers got stuck on the ground, they'd call in the P-51s to wreck whatever was blocking them. The tanks and Wiederstanden were highly vulnerable to air attack, as well as getting their supply lines cut off. The Kriegsmarine's super battleships Bismarck and Tirpitz were destroyed by air attack. Japan's super battleship Yamato suffered a similar fate.
- greedo 4y ago
  Germany ran out of gas because it didn't have a domestic source, and couldn't seize it in the Middle East, nor in the Caucasus region. The Army Air Corps was decent at interdiction missions (trains etc.) and hunting tanks when given free reign; but they were tied to escort missions for far too long. Considering how much money and manpower was invested in the 8th AF, the returns were marginal. German industry was accelerating production until the very end of the war, and proved very resilient to strategic bombing. The Bismarck, Tirpitz etc were all a waste of resources and never did much to influence the war other than to tie down the Home Fleet. The sinking of the Yamato and its sister ship Musahi were non-consequential to the outcome of the war.
  - WalterBright 4y ago
    Germany's oil supply came largely from Ploiești which was destroyed by Allied bombing. The lack of gasoline, particularly high octane gas, crippled the Luftwaffe. High octane gas, in plentiful supply, led to Allied fighters having a huge performance advantage over the Luftwaffe fighters. The battleships did not influence the war because of air power. Without airplanes, the battleships would have carpeted the Atlantic seabed with the convoys that kept Britain in the war. The Yamato also became ineffective because of air power.
    - greedo 4y ago
      My grand-uncle flew in B-24s on the Ploesti raid (Operation Tidal Wave). It had no effect on Axis petroleum production. It's considered one of the biggest failures in WW2 airpower. Airpower had minimal affect on stopping the Kriegsmarine from wreaking havoc in the Atlantic. The German fleet was too weak, in fact the sacrifice of the Hood led to the demise of the Bismarck. If it wasn't a torpedo from a Swordfish jamming the rudder, the rest of the Home Fleet would have crushed it eventually. The Graf Spee fared no better in the South Atlantic. The Yamato (and Musahi) were part of a mistaken Mahanian strategy for a single decisive battle (akin to Tsushima) that would settle the entire Pacific campaign. What really one the war in the Pacific was the USN submarine fleet which put a stranglehold on Japan.
      - WalterBright 4y ago
        > Airpower had minimal affect on stopping the Kriegsmarine from wreaking havoc in the Atlantic. This seriously underestimates it. Airplanes were effectively used to locate and track U-Boots and other ships, vectoring in a destroyer to sink them. Airplanes located and tracked the Bismarck, airplanes crippled it so it could not maneuver, and then the British navy pounded it into oblivion. Without Allied airplanes, the Bismarck could have sailed into any convoy and sunk it all with near impunity. I.e. with aircraft, the Kriegsmarine could not hide. Neither could the Tirpitz. The US wrecked Japan's fleet at Midway, all done with air power. Aircraft did a lot of the sinkings in the Battle of Leyte Gulf. More info on German oil: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b66lm/wherehow_did_nazi_germany_get_access_to_enough/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1b66lm/where...

WalterBright 4y ago

> WW1 It's discussed in detail in the two volume set "Winged Mars" by Cuneo. The crux is being able to see where the enemy was weak, and you could deny the enemy seeing where you were strong. That's what the focus (pun intended) of the air war in WW1 was all about. > Even in WW2 Not in the books I read about WW2. See the battle of Pearl Harbor, Midway, etc. Air power ended the U-Boot threat. The Battle of the Bulge was over for the Wehrmacht the moment the weather cleared and the Air Force could fly. The destruction of the German oil fields was decisive for the Allied victory. See the Battle of Britain - Hitler abandoned plans to invade Britain, knowing he could not do so without air supremacy. Eisenhower knew that D-Day would not work unless the Luftwaffe was suppressed. Air power ended Rommel's campaign in Africa (cut off the Afrika Korp's supplies).

greedo 4y ago
Pearl Harbor was a temporary tactical success, but a strategic failure. The IJN failed to destroy the fuel storage at Pearl, or to block the harbor. They also failed to destroy much of the maintenance and repair facilities. Midway would have been an abject failure for the USN if it weren't for the codebreakers. The B-17s at Midway and most of the other aircraft were pretty useless in the battle itself. This was one of the closest naval engagements in the war, and the US was lucky to come away with the victory. But in the end, the defeat of the Kido Butai wasn't a necessary requirement for defeating Japan. The Battle of the Atlantic was also more dependent upon code breaking than aircraft for success. Combined with the convoy system, the U-boats effect peaked in 1942. After that it was all downhill. Air power in the form of B-24s and escort carriers helped, but were not instrumental. And the Battle of Britain, there was no chance Germany could ever successfully invade the British Isle. They simply didn't have the Navy to cross the channel. Air power helped in many campaigns, but was not instrumental in the outcome of the war.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > They simply didn't have the Navy to cross the channel. The plan was to crush the RAF, which would then have made it easy for the Luftwaffe to prevent the Royal Navy from stopping them from crossing. Ships without air cover are nothing but big, fat, juicy targets, which was proven time and again in WW2. For another example, a single Stuka sank a Russian cruiser in WW2. The objective of the attack on Pearl Harbor was to destroy the aircraft carriers, not the battleships. The attack was a failure because the carriers were not there. Midway was the next attempt to destroy the US aircraft carriers. Instead, it destroyed Japan's carriers, and that was the end of Japan's naval ambitions. B-17s were never designed to attack ships. Frankly, I have no idea why they were at Midway. Maybe long range reconnaissance.