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>In Christian churches I am least impressed by a sermon that talks about how marvelous heaven is going to be at the end. To me that's not the message of Christi

>In Christian churches I am least impressed by a sermon that talks about how marvelous heaven is going to be at the end. To me that's not the message of Christianity. The message is about how to live now, not that we should live in some particular way because there's going to be pie in the sky some day. The end means almost nothing to me. I am glad it's there, but I don't see it as much of a motivating force, if any. I mean, it's the journey that's important. I find this quite sad. In the US, I have never known a kind Christianity that espoused these ideas. The end, either heaven or hell (or purgatory), is everything to Christianity in the US, in my experience. Perhaps it used to be different here.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
christophilus 4y ago
Depends on what flavor of Christianity you adhere to. I follow the Catholic mystical tradition which doesn't really focus on pie in the sky, but rather on the purpose of being, which is to become one with the divine-- a purpose which doesn't have to wait for the afterlife.
- hammock 4y ago
  Came here to say this. One of the goals of a Christian life is to manifest heaven on Earth.
  - hallway_monitor 4y ago
    The interpretation that always interested me was that, when speaking of heaven, Jesus was referring to an enlightened state of mind and way of living here on earth, not some magical place you go when you die. It's obvious to anyone that you can create hell on earth without much effort; I like to think we can create heaven as well.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
> The end, either heaven or hell (or purgatory), is everything to Christianity in the US Yes, unfortunately this is the case in the dominant US expression of Christianity, Evangelicalism. But I think it's changing in some quarters. I've heard several sermons lately about how "eternal life" starts right here on earth. Check out The Bible Project's video on the meaning of Eternal Life [1] I think The Bible Project is kind of on the vanguard of this movement within Evangelicalism (I think they're still theologically Evangelical, but maybe they'd shy away from using the term now since it's become loaded with political baggage), I wouldn't necessarily call it "progressive" but it's looking deeply into biblical interpretation and subtly calling out the predominate Evangelical interpretations. Also, Check out NT Wright's "Surprised by Hope". He's coming from an Anglican perspective with an eschatology that predates the Evangelical "Left Behind" narrative. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOycIMyJZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOycIMyJZM
- dhosek 4y ago
  In evangelical Christianity, there is also the Red Letter Christians movement https://www.redletterchristians.org https://www.redletterchristians.org which is very much a minority movement, but that I would hope is growing.¹ ⸻ 1. I say this, though as an outsider, being a Catholic. We Catholics have our own battles between those who would make Catholicism all about sex and those who think that maybe it should be concerned with a bit more than that.
  - lliamander 4y ago
    This looks more like political agitprop and a rehash of the social gospel movement of the early 20th century than a serious biblical exegesis.
    - theonething 4y ago
      > serious biblical exegesis We (Christians) need this desperately in this day and age.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
pjmorris 4y ago
I can say that I know of communities (and am part of one) of Christians in the US who view the journey here and now as vital. If you're interested, consider the book 'We Make the Road by Walking', McLaren, or the BEMA Discipleship podcast, being sure to start with episode 0.
theonething 4y ago
Why should the journey be orthogonal to the destination? The Bible confirms that both are vital. The Sermon on the Mount commands Christians to be kind, loving and good people in this life. Verses like Matthew 6:19-21, Colossians 3:2 and 1 Corinthians 2:9 compel Christians to live this life in light of eternity. To me, if you accept the presuppositions of the Christian worldview, this is logical. If this life and how you live in it is important, how much more so is eternity? After all, life is temporal. (Mark 8:36) > That's not the message of Christianity > The end means almost nothing to me. This betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the Bible. Again, the Bible presupposes the existence of an eternal Heaven and an eternal Hell. This life is the seedtime for eternity. I'm not here to argue with non-Christians about the validity of these pre-suppositions. I'm saying for those who call themselves Christian and therefore hold the Bible to be true, the end (should) means everything to them.
- joshgachnang 4y ago
  Growing up in the Lutheran church I found that unfortunately a lot of people didn't really read the Bible or think too hard about a lot of the passages. Most people listened to the sermons and how the pastor (or if you were in Lutheran day school like me, your teachers) interpreted and emphasized things. And while they did emphasize being a good person today, there was a huge emphasis on heaven and hell.
  - theonething 4y ago
    I think one of the results of what you describe is a subtle forsaking or compromise of fundamental Biblical truths in lieu of less controversial and more attractive principles that conform more closely with human sentiment and societal norms.
- mcswell 4y ago
  "the Bible presupposes the existence of an eternal Heaven and an eternal Hell." Not to turn this into a theology debate, but the Old Testament says next to nothing about either, and the New Testament doesn't spend much time on them, with maybe the exception of the book of Revelation. Otoh, you did say "presupposes", so possibly that's true.
hprotagonist 4y ago
> sad. In the US, I have never known a kind Christianity that espoused these ideas. And for contrast, I’ve never participated in an american church that has espoused anything but, and haven’t found that aspect of the faith to be particularly difficult in meeting. I know that the “pie in the sky” churches are out there, i just don’t attend them.
mcswell 4y ago
I used to use the term "evangelical" to describe myself, but given the usage of that term in the last ten or so years, I've stopped, and I just consider myself a Christian. That's a preface to what I really wanted to say, which is that having been in various kinds of evangelical-like churches for the past 50 or so years, and having heard a lot of sermons both good and bad (and by "bad" I mainly mean boring, only occasionally something wrong), I've never heard much about heaven or hell; in fact, I can think of precisely one sermon that really gave the topic of heaven much thought, and none that talked about hell. I'm at a loss to explain why your experience and mine are so different. BTW, if you've read C.S. Lewis's Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I have always thought that the monopods (duffers) were a congregation, and their chief a pastor who is constantly preaching boringly obvious things: "And what I say is, when chaps are visible, why, they can see one another." And such like.
golem14 4y ago
I recommend the Don Camillo stories from G. Guareschi. It's kind of a balm for when I feel particularly atheist and annoyed at the world at large.
DeathArrow 4y ago
>In the US, I have never known a kind Christianity that espoused these ideas. The end, either heaven or hell (or purgatory), is everything to Christianity in the US, in my experience. Perhaps it used to be different here. In the Orthodox Church, which I am member of, the accent is on the journey and on the transforming of the individual, not on the prize/punishment. I live in Eastern Europe, but there are orthodox churches in US, like the Orthodox Church in America. You can go and visit at one, and see what's about. You can also chat with a priest or a monk while there. I think that while most protestant, neo-protestant, episcopalian and even catholic churches steadily diluted the religion, the orthodox church try to stay true to the same initial truths the same ways as thousands of years ago.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

christophilus 4y ago

Depends on what flavor of Christianity you adhere to. I follow the Catholic mystical tradition which doesn't really focus on pie in the sky, but rather on the purpose of being, which is to become one with the divine-- a purpose which doesn't have to wait for the afterlife.

hammock 4y ago
Came here to say this. One of the goals of a Christian life is to manifest heaven on Earth.
- hallway_monitor 4y ago
  The interpretation that always interested me was that, when speaking of heaven, Jesus was referring to an enlightened state of mind and way of living here on earth, not some magical place you go when you die. It's obvious to anyone that you can create hell on earth without much effort; I like to think we can create heaven as well.

UncleOxidant 4y ago

> The end, either heaven or hell (or purgatory), is everything to Christianity in the US Yes, unfortunately this is the case in the dominant US expression of Christianity, Evangelicalism. But I think it's changing in some quarters. I've heard several sermons lately about how "eternal life" starts right here on earth. Check out The Bible Project's video on the meaning of Eternal Life [1] I think The Bible Project is kind of on the vanguard of this movement within Evangelicalism (I think they're still theologically Evangelical, but maybe they'd shy away from using the term now since it's become loaded with political baggage), I wouldn't necessarily call it "progressive" but it's looking deeply into biblical interpretation and subtly calling out the predominate Evangelical interpretations. Also, Check out NT Wright's "Surprised by Hope". He's coming from an Anglican perspective with an eschatology that predates the Evangelical "Left Behind" narrative. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOycIMyJZM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCOycIMyJZM

dhosek 4y ago
In evangelical Christianity, there is also the Red Letter Christians movement https://www.redletterchristians.org https://www.redletterchristians.org which is very much a minority movement, but that I would hope is growing.¹ ⸻ 1. I say this, though as an outsider, being a Catholic. We Catholics have our own battles between those who would make Catholicism all about sex and those who think that maybe it should be concerned with a bit more than that.
- lliamander 4y ago
  This looks more like political agitprop and a rehash of the social gospel movement of the early 20th century than a serious biblical exegesis.
  - theonething 4y ago
    > serious biblical exegesis We (Christians) need this desperately in this day and age.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago

pjmorris 4y ago

I can say that I know of communities (and am part of one) of Christians in the US who view the journey here and now as vital. If you're interested, consider the book 'We Make the Road by Walking', McLaren, or the BEMA Discipleship podcast, being sure to start with episode 0.

theonething 4y ago

Why should the journey be orthogonal to the destination? The Bible confirms that both are vital. The Sermon on the Mount commands Christians to be kind, loving and good people in this life. Verses like Matthew 6:19-21, Colossians 3:2 and 1 Corinthians 2:9 compel Christians to live this life in light of eternity. To me, if you accept the presuppositions of the Christian worldview, this is logical. If this life and how you live in it is important, how much more so is eternity? After all, life is temporal. (Mark 8:36) > That's not the message of Christianity > The end means almost nothing to me. This betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the Bible. Again, the Bible presupposes the existence of an eternal Heaven and an eternal Hell. This life is the seedtime for eternity. I'm not here to argue with non-Christians about the validity of these pre-suppositions. I'm saying for those who call themselves Christian and therefore hold the Bible to be true, the end (should) means everything to them.

joshgachnang 4y ago
Growing up in the Lutheran church I found that unfortunately a lot of people didn't really read the Bible or think too hard about a lot of the passages. Most people listened to the sermons and how the pastor (or if you were in Lutheran day school like me, your teachers) interpreted and emphasized things. And while they did emphasize being a good person today, there was a huge emphasis on heaven and hell.
- theonething 4y ago
  I think one of the results of what you describe is a subtle forsaking or compromise of fundamental Biblical truths in lieu of less controversial and more attractive principles that conform more closely with human sentiment and societal norms.
mcswell 4y ago
"the Bible presupposes the existence of an eternal Heaven and an eternal Hell." Not to turn this into a theology debate, but the Old Testament says next to nothing about either, and the New Testament doesn't spend much time on them, with maybe the exception of the book of Revelation. Otoh, you did say "presupposes", so possibly that's true.

hprotagonist 4y ago

> sad. In the US, I have never known a kind Christianity that espoused these ideas. And for contrast, I’ve never participated in an american church that has espoused anything but, and haven’t found that aspect of the faith to be particularly difficult in meeting. I know that the “pie in the sky” churches are out there, i just don’t attend them.

mcswell 4y ago

I used to use the term "evangelical" to describe myself, but given the usage of that term in the last ten or so years, I've stopped, and I just consider myself a Christian. That's a preface to what I really wanted to say, which is that having been in various kinds of evangelical-like churches for the past 50 or so years, and having heard a lot of sermons both good and bad (and by "bad" I mainly mean boring, only occasionally something wrong), I've never heard much about heaven or hell; in fact, I can think of precisely one sermon that really gave the topic of heaven much thought, and none that talked about hell. I'm at a loss to explain why your experience and mine are so different. BTW, if you've read C.S. Lewis's Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I have always thought that the monopods (duffers) were a congregation, and their chief a pastor who is constantly preaching boringly obvious things: "And what I say is, when chaps are visible, why, they can see one another." And such like.

golem14 4y ago

I recommend the Don Camillo stories from G. Guareschi. It's kind of a balm for when I feel particularly atheist and annoyed at the world at large.

DeathArrow 4y ago

>In the US, I have never known a kind Christianity that espoused these ideas. The end, either heaven or hell (or purgatory), is everything to Christianity in the US, in my experience. Perhaps it used to be different here. In the Orthodox Church, which I am member of, the accent is on the journey and on the transforming of the individual, not on the prize/punishment. I live in Eastern Europe, but there are orthodox churches in US, like the Orthodox Church in America. You can go and visit at one, and see what's about. You can also chat with a priest or a monk while there. I think that while most protestant, neo-protestant, episcopalian and even catholic churches steadily diluted the religion, the orthodox church try to stay true to the same initial truths the same ways as thousands of years ago.