4 ms·

I'm pro-choice, but from what I can tell, the pro-choicers who are eager to post about it on the Internet have no clue whatsoever about the actual positions of

I'm pro-choice, but from what I can tell, the pro-choicers who are eager to post about it on the Internet have no clue whatsoever about the actual positions of the people they're arguing against. They're also weirdly-big fans of very weak pro-choice arguments. It's really frustrating. Attempts to explain the other side, or to knock down bad arguments from "my" side so better ones can replace them, are indeed often met with unpleasantness.

MockObject 4y ago
This has been my experience as well. I found myself arguing against the awful logic of my own side, more than the other side at all.
- aendruk 4y ago
  I’m interested to know if there’s a term for this phenomenon. I too find myself frequently engaging “against” my own side, out of a sincere desire to strengthen it and a sensitivity to how its weaker arguments reflect poorly on me.
sjostrom7 4y ago
I (100% pro-choice) think they just get bored with hammering on the bodily autonomy aspect, so they start making posts about what the bible "really" says about abortion and other weak, as you say, arguments. I really think they get tired of saying the same thing over and over, even though it's important. I know I do.
- adastra22 4y ago
  Bodily autonomy is still ignoring the pro-lifer position though, who would argue “what about the baby’s rights?”
  - sjostrom7 4y ago
    Not ignoring it. Just refusing to accept that the rights of the pregnancy supersede the rights of the human carrying it.
    - MockObject 4y ago
      Perhaps "ignoring" means refusing to entertain it even for the sake of argument. Bodily autonomy is probably a weak argument, because it assumes that the fetus isn't a living human being deserving of the same protections against slaughter that you and I enjoy. If it is, bodily autonomy doesn't justify murder. If it's not, then protecting it from abortion is absurd. In neither case though, is bodily autonomy a compelling argument.
      - sjostrom7 4y ago
        Disagree. You can turn up the personhood all the way and still, in a scenario where a child was dying and needed a kidney and their parent was the only available match, the parent could not be legally forced to donate it. Why? They own their body and can't be forced to put themselves through bodily harm to help someone else. You seem to be saying that "personhood" should be the deciding factor of abortion rights, but "personhood" is never going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Bodily autonomy can and should be.
        adastra22 4y ago
        Great job. Now take it the other extreme: is it okay to kill a baby that had already been born, but was still attached by the umbilical cord? It’s still, technically, part of the mother’s body at that point.
        sjostrom7 4y ago
        That's kind of silly. The easiest way to free the one frees the other. We all just want to go about our lives within being forced by law to sacrifice our rights to our bodies.
lazide 4y ago
One thing I’ve come to realize over the years - words are rarely about what they seem on the surface or their contents, but almost always: 1) trying to convince or manipulate someone else or themselves to their benefit, either to agree with them (which feels good), or do something they want (which feels good) 2) self awareness, especially on self mental health, is in extremely short supply.
adastra22 4y ago
Thank you for sharing this. I used to be pro-choice. I think a lot of women (and men) are because of the fear they might be in a position of needing an abortion themselves, or other abstract/potential concerns. Framed as a right to body autonomy, pro-choice seemed the obvious position of any feminist, and how could you possibly believe otherwise? Then I was in the position of having to make the decision myself. Now, years removed, I still don't feel comfortable posting details online, even under a pseudonym. But suffice to say my partner and I were in a position of having to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy that we had really wanted, due to unexpected medical news. Suddenly all those clever pro-choice arguments seemed hollow, now that we were in the position of making the decision ourselves. This was a real thing. She had a heartbeat. We watched her move and react on the ultrasound. We had, for weeks, imbued our hopes and dreams into this unborn child. We could terminate, but it'd be our call. We'd be pulling the trigger. In that moment I finally understood and emotionally connected with the pro-life position and "abortion is murder!" slogans. Now I recognize it is a much more complex, multi-faceted issue than I ever previously thought. Every now and then I look and my daughter and think: I almost killed you. How could I have possibly done that? I get the arguments on both sides of the issue, and I don't think that there is any simple solution. It now frustrates me to no end to see people being very loud and very vocal about what are essentially straw man versions of the opposing side's arguments, and vilifying anyone who thinks differently or has lived a different experience. Whatever happened to civil society?
- sjostrom7 4y ago
  I understand you have strong feelings about whether you wanted an abortion, and that's totally understandable and I'm glad you are happy with the choice you made. But that's not at odds whatsoever with referring to yourself as "pro-choice". (Most folks that get abortions already have kids, so it's not like everyone has to pick "abortion" or "no abortion" for life.) I had an abortion back in the aughts, and never once regretted it, but that doesn't mean I think it was the right choice for you or anyone else that decided to continue their pregnancy. I'm glad we had the choice.
  - adastra22 4y ago

MockObject 4y ago

This has been my experience as well. I found myself arguing against the awful logic of my own side, more than the other side at all.

aendruk 4y ago
I’m interested to know if there’s a term for this phenomenon. I too find myself frequently engaging “against” my own side, out of a sincere desire to strengthen it and a sensitivity to how its weaker arguments reflect poorly on me.

sjostrom7 4y ago

I (100% pro-choice) think they just get bored with hammering on the bodily autonomy aspect, so they start making posts about what the bible "really" says about abortion and other weak, as you say, arguments. I really think they get tired of saying the same thing over and over, even though it's important. I know I do.

adastra22 4y ago
Bodily autonomy is still ignoring the pro-lifer position though, who would argue “what about the baby’s rights?”
- sjostrom7 4y ago
  Not ignoring it. Just refusing to accept that the rights of the pregnancy supersede the rights of the human carrying it.
  - MockObject 4y ago
    Perhaps "ignoring" means refusing to entertain it even for the sake of argument. Bodily autonomy is probably a weak argument, because it assumes that the fetus isn't a living human being deserving of the same protections against slaughter that you and I enjoy. If it is, bodily autonomy doesn't justify murder. If it's not, then protecting it from abortion is absurd. In neither case though, is bodily autonomy a compelling argument.
    - sjostrom7 4y ago
      Disagree. You can turn up the personhood all the way and still, in a scenario where a child was dying and needed a kidney and their parent was the only available match, the parent could not be legally forced to donate it. Why? They own their body and can't be forced to put themselves through bodily harm to help someone else. You seem to be saying that "personhood" should be the deciding factor of abortion rights, but "personhood" is never going to be resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Bodily autonomy can and should be.
      - adastra22 4y ago
        Great job. Now take it the other extreme: is it okay to kill a baby that had already been born, but was still attached by the umbilical cord? It’s still, technically, part of the mother’s body at that point.
        sjostrom7 4y ago
        That's kind of silly. The easiest way to free the one frees the other. We all just want to go about our lives within being forced by law to sacrifice our rights to our bodies.

lazide 4y ago

One thing I’ve come to realize over the years - words are rarely about what they seem on the surface or their contents, but almost always: 1) trying to convince or manipulate someone else or themselves to their benefit, either to agree with them (which feels good), or do something they want (which feels good) 2) self awareness, especially on self mental health, is in extremely short supply.

adastra22 4y ago

Thank you for sharing this. I used to be pro-choice. I think a lot of women (and men) are because of the fear they might be in a position of needing an abortion themselves, or other abstract/potential concerns. Framed as a right to body autonomy, pro-choice seemed the obvious position of any feminist, and how could you possibly believe otherwise? Then I was in the position of having to make the decision myself. Now, years removed, I still don't feel comfortable posting details online, even under a pseudonym. But suffice to say my partner and I were in a position of having to decide whether to terminate a pregnancy that we had really wanted, due to unexpected medical news. Suddenly all those clever pro-choice arguments seemed hollow, now that we were in the position of making the decision ourselves. This was a real thing. She had a heartbeat. We watched her move and react on the ultrasound. We had, for weeks, imbued our hopes and dreams into this unborn child. We could terminate, but it'd be our call. We'd be pulling the trigger. In that moment I finally understood and emotionally connected with the pro-life position and "abortion is murder!" slogans. Now I recognize it is a much more complex, multi-faceted issue than I ever previously thought. Every now and then I look and my daughter and think: I almost killed you. How could I have possibly done that? I get the arguments on both sides of the issue, and I don't think that there is any simple solution. It now frustrates me to no end to see people being very loud and very vocal about what are essentially straw man versions of the opposing side's arguments, and vilifying anyone who thinks differently or has lived a different experience. Whatever happened to civil society?

sjostrom7 4y ago
I understand you have strong feelings about whether you wanted an abortion, and that's totally understandable and I'm glad you are happy with the choice you made. But that's not at odds whatsoever with referring to yourself as "pro-choice". (Most folks that get abortions already have kids, so it's not like everyone has to pick "abortion" or "no abortion" for life.) I had an abortion back in the aughts, and never once regretted it, but that doesn't mean I think it was the right choice for you or anyone else that decided to continue their pregnancy. I'm glad we had the choice.
- adastra22 4y ago