7 ms·

Note for hackers: your hero was a non-technical co-founder.

adgar 15y ago
Few hackers - by which I assume you mean engineers or developers - consider Steve Jobs a "hero." Most would agree he created wonderful products that changed the world, but he isn't much of a hero to a software or hardware hacker. Because as you note, he wasn't technical. Woz is the geek god of the two, because he was building cheap, full fucking computers in a damn garage, by himself. Dennis Ritchie was a hero. Not Steve Jobs. If anything, hackers are more likely than most to respond negatively to Steve's recent approach toward mobile platforms and use of IP in business... which are the sorts of alienating decisions a technical co-founder can make. If by "hackers" you meant "people who want to make product(s) for a startup and learned a few things about code to hack out a prototype," you might be more on-target.
- GHFigs 15y ago
  More and more it seems like "hacker" is a religious or ideological term and not an occupational description.
- codex 15y ago
  I might be hauled before the Politcal Committee for the Advancement of the Revolution for saying this, but please speak for yourself. I am a hacker and by boyhood hero was Steve. He was an artist whose medium was technology. It doesn't get more hacker-like than that to me.
  - adgar 15y ago
    > I am a hacker and by boyhood hero was Steve. He was an artist whose medium was technology. It doesn't get more hacker-like than that to me. This is why I predicated my post on the definition of "hacker." If we're going with the 2011, mainstream meaning of the word, where CEOs can be hackers because they help create amazing technology, then I have no input. Go ahead and hack your life, make some awesome music by hacking your violin, hack whatever you like.
- nirvana 15y ago
  I built my first computer from scratch because we couldn't afford an Apple //. (maybe I spent more in the end doing it, but I learned a lot.) When I say, "From scratch", I mean, I designed it (Z80 based) laid out the printed circuit board, exposed it, etched it, populated it, debugged it, and then I did it all over again to get a video board to connect the computer to a TV set. Then, after all of that, I taught myself Z80 assembly in order to get a minimal ROM OS on it. I soon decided that software was a lot easier to debug than hardware, and that startups were a lot more fun than big companies. I've learned a great many disciplines and how to hack them, from economics and investing, to marketing and business, as well, as physics, electronics, materials science, metal working, and of course, every bit of software I could learn. As a political rebel, someone who took LSD when he was young in order to hack his mind, and a full fledged engineer, startup junkie and capitalist... Steve Jobs is, in fact, my hero. In fact, I think he's the greatest hero this country as had in my lifetime, bar none. Being a hacker isn't about sitting in a basement making code that nobody will ever use. Or at least, that's not the only way to be a hacker. Good engineering means solving problems, and the problems that separate Apple products from the abject crap that everybody else puts out, are as worthy of hacker's efforts as any other engineering problems. In fact, I question the engineering expertise of anyone who pooh-poohs apple's products. I find the tendency here on HN for people to pretend like Apple isn't innovative to be a sure sign that those posters are really not actually hackers. Because hackers know how hard it is, to not only make something work, but make it work well, and make it work well in a way that is really usable. Frankly, if Steve Jobs is not one of your heroes, you're not a hacker in my book.
  - adgar 15y ago
    > someone who took LSD when he was young in order to hack his mind I predicated my post on the meaning of the word "hacker." My parents are hackers by your definition and I only made it halfway through your post. In which case I have no disagreement because we're talking about different things - I made sure to say that in my original post.
    - nirvana 15y ago
      You're being dishonest by quoting that one line, and ignoring the fact that I'm an electronics and software hacker. I guess, in your book, because Woz used drugs, he doesn't qualify as a hacker, eh? This is just childish posturing on your part, since you're not an engineer. Your idea of a hacker is someone who jailbreaks their phone or installs linux on their PC and thinks they are "elite". My idea of a hacker is someone who spends their lives designing and building hardware or software and has significant technological skills. Your "hackers" hate Apple because Apple doesn't compete at the low end of the market selling cheap gadgets, and since your "hackers" have day jobs at retail establishments, they can't afford Apple gear. My hackers recognize the significant engineering effort that it takes to make what Apple does look easy. Your "hackers" hate ability and think too much is being made of Steve Jobs, because anti-capitalism has somehow become cool on a sight ostensibly about people who want to start star ups. My hackers recognize the difficulty in making a dent in the universe with your startup, and applaud Steve Jobs as for doing so. Steve Jobs' has hundreds of patents. I have a few. How many do you have?
- ebiester 15y ago
  Why do all of our heroes have to be hackers, anyway? I aspire to be an entreprenuer as well. He's not a bad hero to have in that arena. (And not because Jobs was this wonderful human being, either!)
  - adgar 15y ago
    > Why do all of our heroes have to be hackers, anyway? They don't, and shouldn't be, if you're an entrepreneur. And I agree with you wholeheartedly that Jobs is an incredible hero for an entrepreneur.
- dpe82 15y ago
  If we say hackers are those who use their skills and technology to accomplish something difficult, Steve Jobs is one of the greats. He used technology to make technology usable, and that's one of the greatest hacks of all.
protomyth 15y ago
I think any technical cofounder would be ecstatic over having a "non-technical" cofounder with his level of technical ability. Be honest, what % of HN readers actually know more about electronics than Steve Jobs did?
- defen 15y ago
  My understanding is that Jobs didn't really have much practical knowledge about contemporary electronics, and that all the "work" he did at Atari was actually done by Wozniak, who came in during the night shift and played video games with Jobs.
  - sbuk 15y ago
    Perhaps, like mosts things in life, the truth lies somewhere between the perceived overstatements of Jobs' achievements and qualities and your "understanding".
    - defen 15y ago
      I guess you're responding to the fact that I put "work" in quotes, but your comment comes off as unnecessarily snarky. My comment was brief, but I wasn't trying to denigrate Jobs achievements. I used the word "understanding" because I try not to speak categorically about people I don't know and events I didn't witness. Yes, Steve Jobs built a frequency counter when he was 12. But here's how Al Alcorn describes the 19 year old Jobs: "I figured, this guy's gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn't have much skills at all," Alcorn remembers. "So I figured I'd hire him." "Jobs never did a lick of engineering in his life. He had me snowed," Alcorn later recalled. "It took years before I figured out that he was getting Woz to 'come in the back door' and do all the work while he got the credit." http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37762/ http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37762/
      - sbuk 15y ago
        I didn't intend to come off as snarky and apologise if you feel in anyway aggrieved (you clearly do). I mere intended to point aout that things are never that black and white and often the truth can be found somewhere in-between.
badclient 15y ago
Emphasis on co-founder. Some will argue "but woz left!". Cofounders leaving is pretty common. It doesn't diminish their importance so much especially since part of what a tech cofounder can do is ensure the company can run without him.
- protomyth 15y ago
  To be fair to Wozniak, the accident pretty much took him out of circulation for a while.
ghshephard 15y ago
Well, except for the fact that the blue box Woz and Jobs built in 1971 were tested using a frequency counter built by Steve Jobs in prior years. Maybe building a frequency counter is something that your average non-technical teenager does these days - but I have to believe it was a little more rarified in 1971. Just because Jobs wasn't as elite a hacker as Woz, doesn't classify him as non-technical.
- nirvana 15y ago
  Also, it's not a zero sum game. We don't have to denigrate anyone to recognize the skills of someone else. Revering Jobs for what he did, does not in any way diminish the contributions of Woz or Dennis Ritchie or dozens of others.
mbesto 15y ago
Note for hackers: it doesn't matter. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of these "rules" for what constitutes the best way to do something. Isn't that the manifesto of "hacking"...that there is no one way to do something? We all see countless articles on here "How to do this, How to do that". The fact is, all of these rules are just frameworks and how you implement them is up to you as a person. So my note for hackers is: your hero was passionate about what he wanted, that's a good co-founder The recent story about PG and Dropbox said it best: "This is why one of our rules is that we’ll break any of our rules." [1] - http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/18/paul-graham-dropbox-and-the-single-founder-exception/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/18/paul-graha...
- nirvana 15y ago
  In fact, one of the inspirations of the use of the word "hacker" was that they broke the rules. This could just be "engineer news", but it is "hacker news" because PG is celebrating those who took unconventional approaches. That's what a hack is. The problem is, when a site becomes mainstream popular it brings in a lot of people outside of its core demographic. In this case, there are a lot of people who are not engineers who think that engineering is cool, and want to think that they are elite. And when someone is a poser, they know they don't measure up, so they try and define who the "legit" ones are. You see this posturing among teenagers a lot. (maybe a lot of Hacker News visitors are just out of their teens?)

adgar 15y ago

Few hackers - by which I assume you mean engineers or developers - consider Steve Jobs a "hero." Most would agree he created wonderful products that changed the world, but he isn't much of a hero to a software or hardware hacker. Because as you note, he wasn't technical. Woz is the geek god of the two, because he was building cheap, full fucking computers in a damn garage, by himself. Dennis Ritchie was a hero. Not Steve Jobs. If anything, hackers are more likely than most to respond negatively to Steve's recent approach toward mobile platforms and use of IP in business... which are the sorts of alienating decisions a technical co-founder can make. If by "hackers" you meant "people who want to make product(s) for a startup and learned a few things about code to hack out a prototype," you might be more on-target.

GHFigs 15y ago
More and more it seems like "hacker" is a religious or ideological term and not an occupational description.
codex 15y ago
I might be hauled before the Politcal Committee for the Advancement of the Revolution for saying this, but please speak for yourself. I am a hacker and by boyhood hero was Steve. He was an artist whose medium was technology. It doesn't get more hacker-like than that to me.
- adgar 15y ago
  > I am a hacker and by boyhood hero was Steve. He was an artist whose medium was technology. It doesn't get more hacker-like than that to me. This is why I predicated my post on the definition of "hacker." If we're going with the 2011, mainstream meaning of the word, where CEOs can be hackers because they help create amazing technology, then I have no input. Go ahead and hack your life, make some awesome music by hacking your violin, hack whatever you like.
nirvana 15y ago
I built my first computer from scratch because we couldn't afford an Apple //. (maybe I spent more in the end doing it, but I learned a lot.) When I say, "From scratch", I mean, I designed it (Z80 based) laid out the printed circuit board, exposed it, etched it, populated it, debugged it, and then I did it all over again to get a video board to connect the computer to a TV set. Then, after all of that, I taught myself Z80 assembly in order to get a minimal ROM OS on it. I soon decided that software was a lot easier to debug than hardware, and that startups were a lot more fun than big companies. I've learned a great many disciplines and how to hack them, from economics and investing, to marketing and business, as well, as physics, electronics, materials science, metal working, and of course, every bit of software I could learn. As a political rebel, someone who took LSD when he was young in order to hack his mind, and a full fledged engineer, startup junkie and capitalist... Steve Jobs is, in fact, my hero. In fact, I think he's the greatest hero this country as had in my lifetime, bar none. Being a hacker isn't about sitting in a basement making code that nobody will ever use. Or at least, that's not the only way to be a hacker. Good engineering means solving problems, and the problems that separate Apple products from the abject crap that everybody else puts out, are as worthy of hacker's efforts as any other engineering problems. In fact, I question the engineering expertise of anyone who pooh-poohs apple's products. I find the tendency here on HN for people to pretend like Apple isn't innovative to be a sure sign that those posters are really not actually hackers. Because hackers know how hard it is, to not only make something work, but make it work well, and make it work well in a way that is really usable. Frankly, if Steve Jobs is not one of your heroes, you're not a hacker in my book.
- adgar 15y ago
  > someone who took LSD when he was young in order to hack his mind I predicated my post on the meaning of the word "hacker." My parents are hackers by your definition and I only made it halfway through your post. In which case I have no disagreement because we're talking about different things - I made sure to say that in my original post.
  - nirvana 15y ago
    You're being dishonest by quoting that one line, and ignoring the fact that I'm an electronics and software hacker. I guess, in your book, because Woz used drugs, he doesn't qualify as a hacker, eh? This is just childish posturing on your part, since you're not an engineer. Your idea of a hacker is someone who jailbreaks their phone or installs linux on their PC and thinks they are "elite". My idea of a hacker is someone who spends their lives designing and building hardware or software and has significant technological skills. Your "hackers" hate Apple because Apple doesn't compete at the low end of the market selling cheap gadgets, and since your "hackers" have day jobs at retail establishments, they can't afford Apple gear. My hackers recognize the significant engineering effort that it takes to make what Apple does look easy. Your "hackers" hate ability and think too much is being made of Steve Jobs, because anti-capitalism has somehow become cool on a sight ostensibly about people who want to start star ups. My hackers recognize the difficulty in making a dent in the universe with your startup, and applaud Steve Jobs as for doing so. Steve Jobs' has hundreds of patents. I have a few. How many do you have?
ebiester 15y ago
Why do all of our heroes have to be hackers, anyway? I aspire to be an entreprenuer as well. He's not a bad hero to have in that arena. (And not because Jobs was this wonderful human being, either!)
- adgar 15y ago
  > Why do all of our heroes have to be hackers, anyway? They don't, and shouldn't be, if you're an entrepreneur. And I agree with you wholeheartedly that Jobs is an incredible hero for an entrepreneur.
dpe82 15y ago
If we say hackers are those who use their skills and technology to accomplish something difficult, Steve Jobs is one of the greats. He used technology to make technology usable, and that's one of the greatest hacks of all.

protomyth 15y ago

I think any technical cofounder would be ecstatic over having a "non-technical" cofounder with his level of technical ability. Be honest, what % of HN readers actually know more about electronics than Steve Jobs did?

defen 15y ago
My understanding is that Jobs didn't really have much practical knowledge about contemporary electronics, and that all the "work" he did at Atari was actually done by Wozniak, who came in during the night shift and played video games with Jobs.
- sbuk 15y ago
  Perhaps, like mosts things in life, the truth lies somewhere between the perceived overstatements of Jobs' achievements and qualities and your "understanding".
  - defen 15y ago
    I guess you're responding to the fact that I put "work" in quotes, but your comment comes off as unnecessarily snarky. My comment was brief, but I wasn't trying to denigrate Jobs achievements. I used the word "understanding" because I try not to speak categorically about people I don't know and events I didn't witness. Yes, Steve Jobs built a frequency counter when he was 12. But here's how Al Alcorn describes the 19 year old Jobs: "I figured, this guy's gotta be cheap, man. He really doesn't have much skills at all," Alcorn remembers. "So I figured I'd hire him." "Jobs never did a lick of engineering in his life. He had me snowed," Alcorn later recalled. "It took years before I figured out that he was getting Woz to 'come in the back door' and do all the work while he got the credit." http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37762/ http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/37762/
    - sbuk 15y ago
      I didn't intend to come off as snarky and apologise if you feel in anyway aggrieved (you clearly do). I mere intended to point aout that things are never that black and white and often the truth can be found somewhere in-between.

badclient 15y ago

Emphasis on co-founder. Some will argue "but woz left!". Cofounders leaving is pretty common. It doesn't diminish their importance so much especially since part of what a tech cofounder can do is ensure the company can run without him.

protomyth 15y ago
To be fair to Wozniak, the accident pretty much took him out of circulation for a while.

ghshephard 15y ago

Well, except for the fact that the blue box Woz and Jobs built in 1971 were tested using a frequency counter built by Steve Jobs in prior years. Maybe building a frequency counter is something that your average non-technical teenager does these days - but I have to believe it was a little more rarified in 1971. Just because Jobs wasn't as elite a hacker as Woz, doesn't classify him as non-technical.

nirvana 15y ago
Also, it's not a zero sum game. We don't have to denigrate anyone to recognize the skills of someone else. Revering Jobs for what he did, does not in any way diminish the contributions of Woz or Dennis Ritchie or dozens of others.

mbesto 15y ago

Note for hackers: it doesn't matter. Quite frankly I'm getting sick of these "rules" for what constitutes the best way to do something. Isn't that the manifesto of "hacking"...that there is no one way to do something? We all see countless articles on here "How to do this, How to do that". The fact is, all of these rules are just frameworks and how you implement them is up to you as a person. So my note for hackers is: your hero was passionate about what he wanted, that's a good co-founder The recent story about PG and Dropbox said it best: "This is why one of our rules is that we’ll break any of our rules." [1] - http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/18/paul-graham-dropbox-and-the-single-founder-exception/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/18/paul-graha...

nirvana 15y ago
In fact, one of the inspirations of the use of the word "hacker" was that they broke the rules. This could just be "engineer news", but it is "hacker news" because PG is celebrating those who took unconventional approaches. That's what a hack is. The problem is, when a site becomes mainstream popular it brings in a lot of people outside of its core demographic. In this case, there are a lot of people who are not engineers who think that engineering is cool, and want to think that they are elite. And when someone is a poser, they know they don't measure up, so they try and define who the "legit" ones are. You see this posturing among teenagers a lot. (maybe a lot of Hacker News visitors are just out of their teens?)