5 ms·

In College, Working Hard to Learn High School Material

75 points by mvs 15y ago

gtani 15y ago
Hmm, i guess the point is to inspire HN'ers to think about systematically improving public education (or at least volunteer as a tutor).
- JoshTriplett 15y ago
  Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes fit into a degree program with prerequisites. People would start at the community college, find out that the first-year college classes they needed had prerequisites of material they didn't understand, and go back to the right starting point. We could do worse than to just send all high-school students to a community college, or programs structured like them.
  - jseliger 15y ago
    Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes fit into a degree program with prerequisites. Compared to universities, you're probably right. Most big universities reward faculty and grad students based on research, not on teaching. So faculty and grad students optimize what they're rewarded for, on average. (I made this point in an essay I wrote for students called "How Universities Work:" http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what-i-wish-i%e2%80%99d-known-freshman-year-a-guide-to-american-university-life-for-the-uninitiated/ http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what... ). If you want to get better teachers or instructors, the universities have to start rewarding staff for that. If they don't, they get what we have now: universities optimized mostly for research with an incidental sideline in teaching. It doesn't help, too, that a lot of students aren't in universities for learning—they're in to party or hang out or burn time or whatever. But that's another subject: http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-skills-and-grade-inflation/ http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-ski... .
    - surfsurge 15y ago
      I would generally agree that historically universities have not been as focused on teaching as research, but I believe there might be a shift in this. Many top-tier engineering schools, such as Purdue, have engineering education departments (https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/AboutUs/ https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/AboutUs/) looking into the pedagogy of technical education.
JoshTriplett 15y ago
I earned my A.S. at Portland Community College before going on to a larger university for my B.S. and PhD. PCC had a large high-school completion program which they tried to steer many entering students towards, along with all the corresponding remedial classes; these served the dual functions of providing an alternative to traditional high school and remedial education for people who supposedly graduated high school. PCC took the very sensible step of providing a placement test when you first enrolled to find out what level of classes you should start with; you could place anywhere from "need 3 years of remedial classes" to "skip the first year or so of english and math". In my case, I lucked out and got a good advisor, who confirmed what I'd found from the handbooks: rather than spend 3 years earning a high-school diploma (graduating at the same time I would have received one in standard K-12), I could spend 2 years earning an A.S. and enter PSU as a junior. I chose the latter. :)
capnrefsmmat 15y ago
I work as an undergraduate teaching assistant in a sophomore physics course, and I've done tutoring for high school "advanced placement" physics classes before. In each case I observe the same problems: students can't do simple algebra, don't understand concepts like dimensional analysis (make sure that when you try to find an energy, it has units of energy), and don't actively seek help when they're struggling. I've had AP students (high school seniors!) write things like this: 7x - 4 = 10, therefore 3x = 10. It took a moment for it to sink in that 7x - 4 is not the same as 3x. Students don't grasp the basic concepts, and nobody takes the time to catch them up, impeding their ability to learn until they catch up and develop a better understanding. Unfortunately the second step often never happens. This is why I'm excited about methods like the Khan Academy's exercise system, where you're encouraged to stay on a concept until you truly understand it. I'm interested to see if they can pull it off successfully, and if it'll be put to good use. Education certainly needs all the help it can get. I wonder what a physics major and hobby programmer like myself can do to help.
- kamens 15y ago
  Hobby programmers are making a big difference right now, helping out Khan Academy by contributing exercises. The whole thing is open source: http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises We've had people who claim to have never been professional programmers come in and create impressive exercises that thousands of students are using daily to fill gaps in algebra, trig, calculus, etc.
  - jpulgarin 15y ago
    For example: http://www.khanacademy.org/exercises?exid=derivative_intuition http://www.khanacademy.org/exercises?exid=derivative_intuiti...
    - capnrefsmmat 15y ago
      That's brilliant. I may need to start recommending these to my students.
  - 15y ago
InclinedPlane 15y ago
This is precisely why there's so much increasing reliance on college experience as a necessary credential for so many jobs, even office work. A high school diploma is no longer a guarantee that someone has basic literacy skills or understands basic algebra.
- dalke 15y ago
  Was it ever?
  - 0x12 15y ago
    http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_education.htm http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_educa...
    - dalke 15y ago
      I read that essay. I don't believe it, or rather, I think it exaggerates what it meant to study a field. I'll base my view on what "1st year calculus" means. (Do note that my high school in Miami offered matrix algebra and differential equations, so I see "1st year calculus" as being a bit basic for what a high school might offer.) I know that in the 1800s few schools taught the calculus we now call "calculus." Back then that term was used for many fields of math, including logic ("the propositional calculus"). Nowadays it's almost only applied to differential and integral calculus. The rigorous foundations of calculus were only laid starting in the mid-1800s, so I seriously doubt that any "backwoods" student would have been doing anything remotely like ε/δ proofs then; that being the basis for our modern understanding of calculus. It might also have been that "1st year calculus" is what we now call "pre-calculus." That's not saying it's impossible. Here's an example book on calculus from De Morgan in the early 1800s: http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsblNu3F&dq=calculus&lr&pg=PA38#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsbl... . This is from a book series meant for adults/non-researchers interested in learning more about the latest science. You can see it has a more geometric approach. I find fascinating the footnote remarking the lack of consensus on how to use the integral sign. The comment on page 52 is telling: There is then in this method neither the rigor of geometry, nor that approach to truth, which, in the method of Leibnitz, may be carried to any extent we please, short of absolute correctness. We would therefore recommend to the student not to regard any proposition derived from this method as true on that account; for falsehoods, as well as truths, may be derived from it. This is quite simply because in 1836 they didn't know how to handle infinities correctly. No modern calculus book would have that phrase, because we do. But let's suppose his father did study differential and integral calculus. That would make him the exception, and not indicative of the average. For evidence: http://pballew.net/mathbooks http://pballew.net/mathbooks describes math education in the US and mentions that in 1871 for the University of Nebraska in Lincoln: "It was early accepted that mathematics, in particular calculus, would not be a required study for all students. In the first University Catalog it is noted that "Surgery and Calculus are not required of students in the Classical course." Exemptions from other mathematics were soon included." I also read in "The calculus for engineers and physicists" Griffin 1897 this line "...methods of cheating the student into using the Calculus without his knowing that he is doing so..." which tells me that calculus wasn't that common in 1897 either. I could apply the same questions to what "geology" means. Here's a textbook from the latter part of the 1800s. It goes into detail about all sorts of different rocks, where they are found how they are use commercially, and so on. It describes land forms. But what of geological processes? Nothing - because we hadn't figured it out yet! It says that folded strata probably come from cooling of the earth's "heated nucleus." In the section "Drift or Boulder Period" it notes what we now say is evidence of the Ice Age, but which then was a curious unknown "produced by Icebergs, Glaciers, or both." They didn't know if it was ice covering the surface, or if the land submerged and icebergs came. They certainly didn't know about continental drift. So the geology of the 1800s would have been quite different from the "earth science" I learned in school.
mhartl 15y ago
"Passing the Regents don’t mean nothing," Ms. Thomas said. Indeed it don't.
- davyjones 15y ago
  Indeed; it doesn't.
crag 15y ago
What did the NYT expect? When you gut the public school system (Florida is just a mess) of funds what did everyone think was gonna happen? In Florida, the most important thing to teachers (and the school boards) is students passing the FCAT (state wide tests). The more in your district who pass the more funds you protect. It's no longer about teaching kids a good education. It's a ridiculous reward system to protect your job. Most public schools have cut out "unnecessary" courses like; music, band, art, history (except American history - only teach what is needed to pass. You looking for an in-depth discussion of the civil war? Not gonna happen), advanced math (hell even basic math in some schools), the sciences, drama, english lit, etc, etc. It's shameful down here. And I think it's a major factor in our "class divide". You want your kids to get a good education, you send them to private school. If you can afford it.
- DilipJ 15y ago
  You don't need to spend a lot for kids to learn the basics. Public school budgets in the US need to be gutted, they are way too bloated as it is. The issue today is that the federal government in the US has made it a priority that every kid go to college, including the ones in the lower half of the bell curve. That's a recipe for diluting the value of a college degree, which historically only the top quartile of students would receive.
- anamax 15y ago
  > It's no longer about teaching kids a good education. Do you really think that the system worked before statewide tests? The tests aren't perfect, but "the kids can pass the test" is a huge improvement over before. If you've got a better way, great, but if it doesn't have an objective way to verify performance, we already know that it will work out very badly.
ivan_ah 15y ago
I have a book coming out at the end of the week that starts from 2+2 and goes all the way up to calculus and linear algebra. My private tutoring experience leads me to believe, that there is a market for "math explained simply" material for adults. Do you guys think there is a market for printed textbooks? I hope to earn a living from selling print-on-demand copies at lulu dot com. When people ask me "what is your startup" and I tell them that it is a math and physics textbook they laugh at me, but I think it is actually a pretty good business idea. Am-I on brain crack? Oh I forgot to say -- the book is really kicks ass and targeted to low-attention-span youth. I do a coherent rendition of high school math in 90 pages, calculus in 60 pages, mechanics in 50 pages, etc. The page format is half-of-letter. email me if you want to see.
- rorrr 15y ago
  Business wise, I wouldn't invest a dime. How do you even market something like that? Textbooks is a cutthroat business, there are thousands of textbooks on math, many of them with decades of history, improvements, fans, recommendations, teachers who use them. You could've picked a fresh subject, like a niche of bioinformatics, or cutting edge solar technologies, but you picked one of the most generic topics with books that don't really age. Basic math doesn't really change, you could pick up a math book from 100 years ago and use it just fine.
  - ivan_ah 15y ago
    > How do you even market something like that? I was hoping to give away (part of) the content for free (http access) to attract people. Then try to push visitors to order the printed version like: http://betterexplained.com/articles/math-betterexplained-ebook-available/ http://betterexplained.com/articles/math-betterexplained-ebo... > Textbooks is a cutthroat business, > there are thousands of textbooks on math I know. That is why I don't want to enter the "course textbook" market -- I am not versed in the steaks and bitches selling tactics ;) I am trying to position myself as an add-on book, kind of like the Schaum's outlines or the "for dummies" series, but without treating my readers as retards. > math book from 100 years ago and use it just fine Correct, and in fact the older the book you pick, the better it will be: more concise. It seems the current bloat of Stewart (300+ pages) is due to the publisher's desire to sell a more expensive product.
jonbro 15y ago
I have been in the workforce for several years now and I find that I need to constantly be refreshing my math. A big chunk of math reeduction came when I moved from doing web development to doing games development, and I find that now that I am in the field, it seems to be sticking with me. I think that one of the big missing things in math education is the application. I can remember all of the stuff that I learned when using a compass and a straight edge, but when I came out of private school, and went to a public school, and started learning out of books, nothing stuck.
forgotAgain 15y ago
So 13.9% of community college students get a degree in 3 years. To me that says the system is trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Everyone doesn't need to have a college degree. Everyone needs advanced training but that doesn't always mean college. High schools should return to offering vocational training as well as academic paths.
radarsat1 15y ago
an important question to ask is, what about the students who now have a high school diploma who otherwise would not have one, and are not going to attend college? I bet they are better off, and, unfortunately, are likely a large portion, if not the majority, of high school graduates in that region. I agree there is a problem here, but am afraid it is not as simple as "durr, their high school is too easy." There are kids in those schools who will _need_ that diploma; of course, making things easier will devalue the diploma in the long run, so making things easy is no solution, but you can't entirely fault them for focusing hard on getting the students to pass exams. It's more like a symptom of larger system we live in, where having that diploma is simply far, far better than not having it. (whether it carries any real meaning or not)
saturdaysaint 15y ago
“A few years ago, we noticed the numbers really jump,” said John Mogulescu, the senior university dean for CUNY. Thank you "No Child Left Behind"?

75 points by mvs 15y ago

gtani 15y ago

Hmm, i guess the point is to inspire HN'ers to think about systematically improving public education (or at least volunteer as a tutor).

JoshTriplett 15y ago
Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes fit into a degree program with prerequisites. People would start at the community college, find out that the first-year college classes they needed had prerequisites of material they didn't understand, and go back to the right starting point. We could do worse than to just send all high-school students to a community college, or programs structured like them.
- jseliger 15y ago
  Personally, I found that community college did a far better job at teaching the material; I suspect that in large part this occurred because the classes fit into a degree program with prerequisites. Compared to universities, you're probably right. Most big universities reward faculty and grad students based on research, not on teaching. So faculty and grad students optimize what they're rewarded for, on average. (I made this point in an essay I wrote for students called "How Universities Work:" http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what-i-wish-i%e2%80%99d-known-freshman-year-a-guide-to-american-university-life-for-the-uninitiated/ http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what... ). If you want to get better teachers or instructors, the universities have to start rewarding staff for that. If they don't, they get what we have now: universities optimized mostly for research with an incidental sideline in teaching. It doesn't help, too, that a lot of students aren't in universities for learning—they're in to party or hang out or burn time or whatever. But that's another subject: http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-skills-and-grade-inflation/ http://jseliger.com/2011/10/07/student-choice-employment-ski... .
  - surfsurge 15y ago
    I would generally agree that historically universities have not been as focused on teaching as research, but I believe there might be a shift in this. Many top-tier engineering schools, such as Purdue, have engineering education departments (https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/AboutUs/ https://engineering.purdue.edu/ENE/AboutUs/) looking into the pedagogy of technical education.

JoshTriplett 15y ago

I earned my A.S. at Portland Community College before going on to a larger university for my B.S. and PhD. PCC had a large high-school completion program which they tried to steer many entering students towards, along with all the corresponding remedial classes; these served the dual functions of providing an alternative to traditional high school and remedial education for people who supposedly graduated high school. PCC took the very sensible step of providing a placement test when you first enrolled to find out what level of classes you should start with; you could place anywhere from "need 3 years of remedial classes" to "skip the first year or so of english and math". In my case, I lucked out and got a good advisor, who confirmed what I'd found from the handbooks: rather than spend 3 years earning a high-school diploma (graduating at the same time I would have received one in standard K-12), I could spend 2 years earning an A.S. and enter PSU as a junior. I chose the latter. :)

capnrefsmmat 15y ago

I work as an undergraduate teaching assistant in a sophomore physics course, and I've done tutoring for high school "advanced placement" physics classes before. In each case I observe the same problems: students can't do simple algebra, don't understand concepts like dimensional analysis (make sure that when you try to find an energy, it has units of energy), and don't actively seek help when they're struggling. I've had AP students (high school seniors!) write things like this: 7x - 4 = 10, therefore 3x = 10. It took a moment for it to sink in that 7x - 4 is not the same as 3x. Students don't grasp the basic concepts, and nobody takes the time to catch them up, impeding their ability to learn until they catch up and develop a better understanding. Unfortunately the second step often never happens. This is why I'm excited about methods like the Khan Academy's exercise system, where you're encouraged to stay on a concept until you truly understand it. I'm interested to see if they can pull it off successfully, and if it'll be put to good use. Education certainly needs all the help it can get. I wonder what a physics major and hobby programmer like myself can do to help.

kamens 15y ago
Hobby programmers are making a big difference right now, helping out Khan Academy by contributing exercises. The whole thing is open source: http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises http://github.com/khan/khan-exercises We've had people who claim to have never been professional programmers come in and create impressive exercises that thousands of students are using daily to fill gaps in algebra, trig, calculus, etc.
- jpulgarin 15y ago
  For example: http://www.khanacademy.org/exercises?exid=derivative_intuition http://www.khanacademy.org/exercises?exid=derivative_intuiti...
  - capnrefsmmat 15y ago
    That's brilliant. I may need to start recommending these to my students.
- 15y ago

InclinedPlane 15y ago

This is precisely why there's so much increasing reliance on college experience as a necessary credential for so many jobs, even office work. A high school diploma is no longer a guarantee that someone has basic literacy skills or understands basic algebra.

dalke 15y ago
Was it ever?
- 0x12 15y ago
  http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_education.htm http://fathersforlife.org/education/happy_days_decline_educa...
  - dalke 15y ago
    I read that essay. I don't believe it, or rather, I think it exaggerates what it meant to study a field. I'll base my view on what "1st year calculus" means. (Do note that my high school in Miami offered matrix algebra and differential equations, so I see "1st year calculus" as being a bit basic for what a high school might offer.) I know that in the 1800s few schools taught the calculus we now call "calculus." Back then that term was used for many fields of math, including logic ("the propositional calculus"). Nowadays it's almost only applied to differential and integral calculus. The rigorous foundations of calculus were only laid starting in the mid-1800s, so I seriously doubt that any "backwoods" student would have been doing anything remotely like ε/δ proofs then; that being the basis for our modern understanding of calculus. It might also have been that "1st year calculus" is what we now call "pre-calculus." That's not saying it's impossible. Here's an example book on calculus from De Morgan in the early 1800s: http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsblNu3F&dq=calculus&lr&pg=PA38#v=onepage&q&f=false http://books.google.com/books?id=zA4TAQAAMAAJ&ots=iIzsbl... . This is from a book series meant for adults/non-researchers interested in learning more about the latest science. You can see it has a more geometric approach. I find fascinating the footnote remarking the lack of consensus on how to use the integral sign. The comment on page 52 is telling: There is then in this method neither the rigor of geometry, nor that approach to truth, which, in the method of Leibnitz, may be carried to any extent we please, short of absolute correctness. We would therefore recommend to the student not to regard any proposition derived from this method as true on that account; for falsehoods, as well as truths, may be derived from it. This is quite simply because in 1836 they didn't know how to handle infinities correctly. No modern calculus book would have that phrase, because we do. But let's suppose his father did study differential and integral calculus. That would make him the exception, and not indicative of the average. For evidence: http://pballew.net/mathbooks http://pballew.net/mathbooks describes math education in the US and mentions that in 1871 for the University of Nebraska in Lincoln: "It was early accepted that mathematics, in particular calculus, would not be a required study for all students. In the first University Catalog it is noted that "Surgery and Calculus are not required of students in the Classical course." Exemptions from other mathematics were soon included." I also read in "The calculus for engineers and physicists" Griffin 1897 this line "...methods of cheating the student into using the Calculus without his knowing that he is doing so..." which tells me that calculus wasn't that common in 1897 either. I could apply the same questions to what "geology" means. Here's a textbook from the latter part of the 1800s. It goes into detail about all sorts of different rocks, where they are found how they are use commercially, and so on. It describes land forms. But what of geological processes? Nothing - because we hadn't figured it out yet! It says that folded strata probably come from cooling of the earth's "heated nucleus." In the section "Drift or Boulder Period" it notes what we now say is evidence of the Ice Age, but which then was a curious unknown "produced by Icebergs, Glaciers, or both." They didn't know if it was ice covering the surface, or if the land submerged and icebergs came. They certainly didn't know about continental drift. So the geology of the 1800s would have been quite different from the "earth science" I learned in school.

mhartl 15y ago

"Passing the Regents don’t mean nothing," Ms. Thomas said. Indeed it don't.

davyjones 15y ago
Indeed; it doesn't.

crag 15y ago

What did the NYT expect? When you gut the public school system (Florida is just a mess) of funds what did everyone think was gonna happen? In Florida, the most important thing to teachers (and the school boards) is students passing the FCAT (state wide tests). The more in your district who pass the more funds you protect. It's no longer about teaching kids a good education. It's a ridiculous reward system to protect your job. Most public schools have cut out "unnecessary" courses like; music, band, art, history (except American history - only teach what is needed to pass. You looking for an in-depth discussion of the civil war? Not gonna happen), advanced math (hell even basic math in some schools), the sciences, drama, english lit, etc, etc. It's shameful down here. And I think it's a major factor in our "class divide". You want your kids to get a good education, you send them to private school. If you can afford it.

DilipJ 15y ago
You don't need to spend a lot for kids to learn the basics. Public school budgets in the US need to be gutted, they are way too bloated as it is. The issue today is that the federal government in the US has made it a priority that every kid go to college, including the ones in the lower half of the bell curve. That's a recipe for diluting the value of a college degree, which historically only the top quartile of students would receive.
anamax 15y ago
> It's no longer about teaching kids a good education. Do you really think that the system worked before statewide tests? The tests aren't perfect, but "the kids can pass the test" is a huge improvement over before. If you've got a better way, great, but if it doesn't have an objective way to verify performance, we already know that it will work out very badly.

ivan_ah 15y ago

I have a book coming out at the end of the week that starts from 2+2 and goes all the way up to calculus and linear algebra. My private tutoring experience leads me to believe, that there is a market for "math explained simply" material for adults. Do you guys think there is a market for printed textbooks? I hope to earn a living from selling print-on-demand copies at lulu dot com. When people ask me "what is your startup" and I tell them that it is a math and physics textbook they laugh at me, but I think it is actually a pretty good business idea. Am-I on brain crack? Oh I forgot to say -- the book is really kicks ass and targeted to low-attention-span youth. I do a coherent rendition of high school math in 90 pages, calculus in 60 pages, mechanics in 50 pages, etc. The page format is half-of-letter. email me if you want to see.

rorrr 15y ago
Business wise, I wouldn't invest a dime. How do you even market something like that? Textbooks is a cutthroat business, there are thousands of textbooks on math, many of them with decades of history, improvements, fans, recommendations, teachers who use them. You could've picked a fresh subject, like a niche of bioinformatics, or cutting edge solar technologies, but you picked one of the most generic topics with books that don't really age. Basic math doesn't really change, you could pick up a math book from 100 years ago and use it just fine.
- ivan_ah 15y ago
  > How do you even market something like that? I was hoping to give away (part of) the content for free (http access) to attract people. Then try to push visitors to order the printed version like: http://betterexplained.com/articles/math-betterexplained-ebook-available/ http://betterexplained.com/articles/math-betterexplained-ebo... > Textbooks is a cutthroat business, > there are thousands of textbooks on math I know. That is why I don't want to enter the "course textbook" market -- I am not versed in the steaks and bitches selling tactics ;) I am trying to position myself as an add-on book, kind of like the Schaum's outlines or the "for dummies" series, but without treating my readers as retards. > math book from 100 years ago and use it just fine Correct, and in fact the older the book you pick, the better it will be: more concise. It seems the current bloat of Stewart (300+ pages) is due to the publisher's desire to sell a more expensive product.

jonbro 15y ago

I have been in the workforce for several years now and I find that I need to constantly be refreshing my math. A big chunk of math reeduction came when I moved from doing web development to doing games development, and I find that now that I am in the field, it seems to be sticking with me. I think that one of the big missing things in math education is the application. I can remember all of the stuff that I learned when using a compass and a straight edge, but when I came out of private school, and went to a public school, and started learning out of books, nothing stuck.

forgotAgain 15y ago

So 13.9% of community college students get a degree in 3 years. To me that says the system is trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Everyone doesn't need to have a college degree. Everyone needs advanced training but that doesn't always mean college. High schools should return to offering vocational training as well as academic paths.

radarsat1 15y ago

an important question to ask is, what about the students who now have a high school diploma who otherwise would not have one, and are not going to attend college? I bet they are better off, and, unfortunately, are likely a large portion, if not the majority, of high school graduates in that region. I agree there is a problem here, but am afraid it is not as simple as "durr, their high school is too easy." There are kids in those schools who will _need_ that diploma; of course, making things easier will devalue the diploma in the long run, so making things easy is no solution, but you can't entirely fault them for focusing hard on getting the students to pass exams. It's more like a symptom of larger system we live in, where having that diploma is simply far, far better than not having it. (whether it carries any real meaning or not)

saturdaysaint 15y ago

“A few years ago, we noticed the numbers really jump,” said John Mogulescu, the senior university dean for CUNY. Thank you "No Child Left Behind"?