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I don't know if a generic HR/manager reference would tell even the salary. But now I'm genuinely curious: 1. how do you make sure references presented aren't e

by jarek 15y ago

I don't know if a generic HR/manager reference would tell even the salary. But now I'm genuinely curious: 1. how do you make sure references presented aren't extremely cherry-picked - does it just come out as obvious in the conversation? 2. what about more junior employees, who may not have much of a network for an employer to hit up?

tptacek 15y ago
Do not use HR people as references! You're better off cherry-picking your references than you are trying to be "honest" about them and not knowing for sure what your reference is going to say about you. As long as you actually worked with the person who's giving your reference, you're fine.
- jarek 15y ago
  Follow-up: 3. Is this situation like resume/cover letter advice, where everyone has their own favourite system and each person's advice for the perfect application is different?
  - nl 15y ago
    No - being confident that your referees are going to say good things about you is always good advice.
    - m0nastic 15y ago
      At the risk of this sounding like a bullshit platitude, if you find yourself having to really cautiously cherry-pick your references, you might want to evaluate if that says something about your work (it may or may not). I may have just been really lucky in my career, but there isn't anyone I've worked with (either as a coworker, manager, or as an underling) who I wouldn't feel comfortable being a reference. That's not to say there aren't people who I wouldn't chose to be a reference (maybe we didn't work together very closely), but seriously, nobody who if I were on trial and the prosecutor called as a "surprise witness" I'd cringe and worry that they might say something negative about my work.
      - tptacek 15y ago
        As someone who was once (not too long ago) blindsided by an unexpectedly- somewhat- negative reference, and who has seen a couple other people similarly blindsided, and where in all these cases the backdoor reference, while not a coached reference, was someone you could have seen it coming for (a manager, a close coworker, etc): It's probably a good idea to secure agreement that, should a reference call come in, you're going to get 100% positive feedback. You can accomplish that without demanding 100% positive references; just say something like, "hey, Joe, I'm getting pretty far down the road with a potential gig and they're smart and might track you down for a reference... anything I'd need to be concerned about?". Once a person tells you to your face that they're not going to say anything bad about you, they're a lot less likely to. Whereas, if you don't have the conversation at all, your coworkers can tank you without even meaning to. People who aren't experienced giving references might even think it's a good idea to balance out positive things with some (they think) minor negatives. You probably want to nip that idea in the bud, if you can. Incidentally: if you get called on to give a reference and you're wondering if maybe it'd be a good idea to sprinkle some talk about quirks and idiosyncrasies into a reference: don't. Just give boring good references.
        m0nastic 15y ago
        That's actually a good point. You should definitely make sure that you've talked to anyone you're going to list ahead of time. I've done a couple dozen security clearance interviews for co-workers or past co-workers (which is basically a hiring interview on steroids), and the rule of thumb there is absolutely that you want to give as boring an answer as possible. When I read this series of comments, for some reason I thought of the series finale of Seinfeld (the courtroom), which brought to mind that it might be useful to evaluate if in your career you've left a bunch of people who you wouldn't want a prospective employer to contact.
        keithpeter 15y ago
        My experience of this is that the reference taker phoned up, and kept on going until the blandness wore off. The person got the job so I assume they were satisfied. I got the distinct impression that notes were being taken, and cross referenced with interview notes and the CV. I had a copy of the applicant's CV in front of me.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    So many people coach their references --- that's the whole reason we go through the trouble of doing backdoor references! --- that you can safely assume any prospective employer has already factored coaching in to any reference you give them. Which means, game-theoretically, you might as well coach them.

by jarek 15y ago

tptacek 15y ago

Do not use HR people as references! You're better off cherry-picking your references than you are trying to be "honest" about them and not knowing for sure what your reference is going to say about you. As long as you actually worked with the person who's giving your reference, you're fine.

jarek 15y ago
Follow-up: 3. Is this situation like resume/cover letter advice, where everyone has their own favourite system and each person's advice for the perfect application is different?
- nl 15y ago
  No - being confident that your referees are going to say good things about you is always good advice.
  - m0nastic 15y ago
    At the risk of this sounding like a bullshit platitude, if you find yourself having to really cautiously cherry-pick your references, you might want to evaluate if that says something about your work (it may or may not). I may have just been really lucky in my career, but there isn't anyone I've worked with (either as a coworker, manager, or as an underling) who I wouldn't feel comfortable being a reference. That's not to say there aren't people who I wouldn't chose to be a reference (maybe we didn't work together very closely), but seriously, nobody who if I were on trial and the prosecutor called as a "surprise witness" I'd cringe and worry that they might say something negative about my work.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      As someone who was once (not too long ago) blindsided by an unexpectedly- somewhat- negative reference, and who has seen a couple other people similarly blindsided, and where in all these cases the backdoor reference, while not a coached reference, was someone you could have seen it coming for (a manager, a close coworker, etc): It's probably a good idea to secure agreement that, should a reference call come in, you're going to get 100% positive feedback. You can accomplish that without demanding 100% positive references; just say something like, "hey, Joe, I'm getting pretty far down the road with a potential gig and they're smart and might track you down for a reference... anything I'd need to be concerned about?". Once a person tells you to your face that they're not going to say anything bad about you, they're a lot less likely to. Whereas, if you don't have the conversation at all, your coworkers can tank you without even meaning to. People who aren't experienced giving references might even think it's a good idea to balance out positive things with some (they think) minor negatives. You probably want to nip that idea in the bud, if you can. Incidentally: if you get called on to give a reference and you're wondering if maybe it'd be a good idea to sprinkle some talk about quirks and idiosyncrasies into a reference: don't. Just give boring good references.
      - m0nastic 15y ago
        That's actually a good point. You should definitely make sure that you've talked to anyone you're going to list ahead of time. I've done a couple dozen security clearance interviews for co-workers or past co-workers (which is basically a hiring interview on steroids), and the rule of thumb there is absolutely that you want to give as boring an answer as possible. When I read this series of comments, for some reason I thought of the series finale of Seinfeld (the courtroom), which brought to mind that it might be useful to evaluate if in your career you've left a bunch of people who you wouldn't want a prospective employer to contact.
        keithpeter 15y ago
        My experience of this is that the reference taker phoned up, and kept on going until the blandness wore off. The person got the job so I assume they were satisfied. I got the distinct impression that notes were being taken, and cross referenced with interview notes and the CV. I had a copy of the applicant's CV in front of me.
- tptacek 15y ago
  So many people coach their references --- that's the whole reason we go through the trouble of doing backdoor references! --- that you can safely assume any prospective employer has already factored coaching in to any reference you give them. Which means, game-theoretically, you might as well coach them.