3 ms·

Well, not really. The defining thing here is grey-zone warfare. The Moskva (and ships in general) aren't really made for a war where you can't shoot down AWACS

Well, not really. The defining thing here is grey-zone warfare. The Moskva (and ships in general) aren't really made for a war where you can't shoot down AWACS. Because they can't be. Generally the assumption is that the AWACS is going to be shot down, very fast. It's a pretty solid one to make, too. But of course there was also a lot of incompetence, and the sheer age and obsolescence of the Moskva didn't help either.

Tossrock 4y ago
Why would that be a solid assumption? If Russia were actually engaging US forces and was "allowed" to shoot the AWACS, then they would also be engaging the USAF - by far the most effective air force in the world - who would deny such attempts.
- sudosysgen 4y ago
  The USAF (nor anyone else) has no practical way to defend an AWACS against a near-peer enemy. That's kind of the point of the R-37 or PL-15 (even moreso the PL-21), soft targets such as AWACS are vulnerable at 300-400km. That's also the real value proposition of the Su-57, even though they are few and probably can't defeat an F-22, it sure can defeat an AWACS and it's not feasible to detect it before it gets within 300km of an AWACS.
  - greedo 4y ago
    You're making huge assumptions here. One is the reliability of anti-AWACs AAMs, while ignoring both kill-chain issues and ECM etc. Sure the Russian AF might be able to use them during a "bolt out of the blue" attack, but once hostilities have commenced, any airbase that hosts MIG-31BMs will be targeted heavily.
    - sudosysgen 4y ago
      The killchain issues are very easy to deal with. An AWACS is a massive target, it doesn't take much to get a missile there. As far as ECM, it works a lot better when you have a small radar cross section. The burn through range for a frequency agile radar at that cross section is going to be far too much. > but once hostilities have commenced, any airbase that hosts MIG-31BMs will be targeted heavily. People say this a lot, but Ukrainian and Iraqi planes were flying weeks after that. And it's not just the MiG-31BM that can carry them.

Tossrock 4y ago

Why would that be a solid assumption? If Russia were actually engaging US forces and was "allowed" to shoot the AWACS, then they would also be engaging the USAF - by far the most effective air force in the world - who would deny such attempts.

sudosysgen 4y ago
The USAF (nor anyone else) has no practical way to defend an AWACS against a near-peer enemy. That's kind of the point of the R-37 or PL-15 (even moreso the PL-21), soft targets such as AWACS are vulnerable at 300-400km. That's also the real value proposition of the Su-57, even though they are few and probably can't defeat an F-22, it sure can defeat an AWACS and it's not feasible to detect it before it gets within 300km of an AWACS.
- greedo 4y ago
  You're making huge assumptions here. One is the reliability of anti-AWACs AAMs, while ignoring both kill-chain issues and ECM etc. Sure the Russian AF might be able to use them during a "bolt out of the blue" attack, but once hostilities have commenced, any airbase that hosts MIG-31BMs will be targeted heavily.
  - sudosysgen 4y ago
    The killchain issues are very easy to deal with. An AWACS is a massive target, it doesn't take much to get a missile there. As far as ECM, it works a lot better when you have a small radar cross section. The burn through range for a frequency agile radar at that cross section is going to be far too much. > but once hostilities have commenced, any airbase that hosts MIG-31BMs will be targeted heavily. People say this a lot, but Ukrainian and Iraqi planes were flying weeks after that. And it's not just the MiG-31BM that can carry them.