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Germany is a lot bigger, and for Germany nuclear power certainly isn't sustainable. The population isn't on board for one thing. For another, the supply chain a

Germany is a lot bigger, and for Germany nuclear power certainly isn't sustainable. The population isn't on board for one thing. For another, the supply chain and the complicated life cycle has a tendency to bind huge amounts of resources and manpower that can't be easily used elsewhere in the economy, if you can find it in the first place (France has a shortage of nuclear engineers for example). Add to that the impossible and horrendously complicated nature of the risk management calculations. If we started now, we might replace Russian gas in 20 years. We can do that in a year or two with renewable energy and other means while avoiding a lot of the other problems.

simion314 4y ago
>We can do that in a year or two with renewable energy and other means while avoiding a lot of the other problems. How can you do that? Can you create build storage in 1 year for entire Germany needs? How?, please explain!
- Krasnol 4y ago
  Germany is right in the middle of the biggest and most stable grid on this planet. They don't have to build storage within a year because they don't have to store all that stuff. They can take their time and continue to expand their national grid. Something they've been doing even during the last 16 years where the conservative government has been crippling the expansion of renewable energy.
  - DANK_YACHT 4y ago
    Germany derives 25% of its energy consumption from natural gas. In order to remove this, they'll need to replace it with something. If they want to replace it with renewable energy, then they'll need storage. In no universe can they simply swap 25% of their energy consumption within a year without additional infrastructure.
    - Krasnol 4y ago
      > Germany derives 25% of its power consumption from natural gas. It's been barely over 10% in 2021. -10% from the previous year. Please stop spreading lies anybody can google up in seconds: https://strom-report.de/download/strommix-2021-deutschland/ https://strom-report.de/download/strommix-2021-deutschland/ > If they want to replace it with renewable energy, then they'll need storage. They obviously don't because it took them one year to get rid of 10% of it already. Without any significant expansion of storage capacity or expansion of renewables btw because the previous Goverment was not in for that. This one is. I don't know where you get those arguments from but you should seriously reconsider those sources.
      - DANK_YACHT 4y ago
        This source says that natural gas was 25% of Germany's energy consumption: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... Your link only covers electricity generation, which is only a part of total energy consumption.
        Krasnol 4y ago
        It covers electricity because this is the only sector where nuclear could be relevant. The other sectors like heating and industry use of gas can't be covered by nuclear since electrical heating is negligible in Germany. Didn't you look that up?
        DANK_YACHT 4y ago
        You can use nuclear or stored renewables to power a heat pump, which could heat homes for most of the German winter. You’re saying heating is “negligible”, but the fact remains that 25% of all energy consumed in Germany comes from natural gas. There is nothing negligible about that. Also, it seems like you might not be aware, but natural gas has other uses besides heating and electricity. Natural gas is necessary to make hydrogen, which is a key component in making ammonia used for fertilizer. It has other industrial uses as well.
  - simion314 4y ago
    This makes no sense, the other countries will not build storage for Germany and also they will want to build renweables, you present a fake solution.
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Building out renewables is the correct action right now. In the readily foreseeable future, building storage will be correct. In the meantime, building factories to build storage is beginning. All these things take time. Repeating that things still yet to be done have not already been done sheds no light.
    - Krasnol 4y ago
      "The other countries" do that and they're happy to do it. We just recently got a significant boost from Nordlink. But you don't care about all that don't you? You just want to forcefully project your own attitude and hope that the other side is just as bad informed as you are because this is how that nuclear astro turf works...
    - bayesian_horse 4y ago
      Random dudes on Hackernews are pointing out the flaws im Germany's energy policy because with a few minutes of research they can see what experts through years of study and research cannot see...
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Storage will be built when it makes sense to build storage. For storage to be useful, you need enought renewables to charge it from.
  - simion314 4y ago
    How? Magic ? I will buy solar panel for my home now and disconnect from the grid if you are capable provide me with a storage product that makes sense. AFAIK there are no batteries that are safe and make economical sense today and I have no clue what you storage thing you allude too that can be built in 1 year (very convenient of you not to mention what exactly it is you think that storage is that will appear this year if there is a demand)
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      The topic is utility-scale storage. For your house, batteries is currently your best alternative. New battery tech is coming online which may turn out to scale down to single home use. Or may not. But even lithium storage gets cheaper every year. The right mix of storage technologies will very widely according to where it serves.
      - simion314 4y ago
        >The topic is utility-scale storage. The topic of this thread is storage that you can have built in 1 year, at max 2. Hydro storage takes a lot more time to be built from scratch.
        ncmncm 4y ago
        We don't have enough renewable generating capacity to charge storage from, and won't two years from now, either.
        simion314 4y ago
        You mean Germany has enough storage now that is unused and would also be enough to cover the case where gas is replaced with solar? Any numbers that show this , including say 1 winter week for residential and industry consumption?
- bayesian_horse 4y ago
  Nota bene "and other means". This may include other fossil fuels, even other sources of natural gas in the meantime. Which are still easier to get rid of mid-term than nuclear power. Nuclear power in Germany is not going to happen. We don't like the risk profile, both financially and otherwise. Other nations may see it differently.

simion314 4y ago

>We can do that in a year or two with renewable energy and other means while avoiding a lot of the other problems. How can you do that? Can you create build storage in 1 year for entire Germany needs? How?, please explain!

Krasnol 4y ago
Germany is right in the middle of the biggest and most stable grid on this planet. They don't have to build storage within a year because they don't have to store all that stuff. They can take their time and continue to expand their national grid. Something they've been doing even during the last 16 years where the conservative government has been crippling the expansion of renewable energy.
- DANK_YACHT 4y ago
  Germany derives 25% of its energy consumption from natural gas. In order to remove this, they'll need to replace it with something. If they want to replace it with renewable energy, then they'll need storage. In no universe can they simply swap 25% of their energy consumption within a year without additional infrastructure.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    > Germany derives 25% of its power consumption from natural gas. It's been barely over 10% in 2021. -10% from the previous year. Please stop spreading lies anybody can google up in seconds: https://strom-report.de/download/strommix-2021-deutschland/ https://strom-report.de/download/strommix-2021-deutschland/ > If they want to replace it with renewable energy, then they'll need storage. They obviously don't because it took them one year to get rid of 10% of it already. Without any significant expansion of storage capacity or expansion of renewables btw because the previous Goverment was not in for that. This one is. I don't know where you get those arguments from but you should seriously reconsider those sources.
    - DANK_YACHT 4y ago
      This source says that natural gas was 25% of Germany's energy consumption: https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-consumption-and-power-mix-charts https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/germanys-energy-c... Your link only covers electricity generation, which is only a part of total energy consumption.
      - Krasnol 4y ago
        It covers electricity because this is the only sector where nuclear could be relevant. The other sectors like heating and industry use of gas can't be covered by nuclear since electrical heating is negligible in Germany. Didn't you look that up?
        DANK_YACHT 4y ago
        You can use nuclear or stored renewables to power a heat pump, which could heat homes for most of the German winter. You’re saying heating is “negligible”, but the fact remains that 25% of all energy consumed in Germany comes from natural gas. There is nothing negligible about that. Also, it seems like you might not be aware, but natural gas has other uses besides heating and electricity. Natural gas is necessary to make hydrogen, which is a key component in making ammonia used for fertilizer. It has other industrial uses as well.
- simion314 4y ago
  This makes no sense, the other countries will not build storage for Germany and also they will want to build renweables, you present a fake solution.
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Building out renewables is the correct action right now. In the readily foreseeable future, building storage will be correct. In the meantime, building factories to build storage is beginning. All these things take time. Repeating that things still yet to be done have not already been done sheds no light.
  - Krasnol 4y ago
    "The other countries" do that and they're happy to do it. We just recently got a significant boost from Nordlink. But you don't care about all that don't you? You just want to forcefully project your own attitude and hope that the other side is just as bad informed as you are because this is how that nuclear astro turf works...
  - bayesian_horse 4y ago
    Random dudes on Hackernews are pointing out the flaws im Germany's energy policy because with a few minutes of research they can see what experts through years of study and research cannot see...
ncmncm 4y ago
Storage will be built when it makes sense to build storage. For storage to be useful, you need enought renewables to charge it from.
- simion314 4y ago
  How? Magic ? I will buy solar panel for my home now and disconnect from the grid if you are capable provide me with a storage product that makes sense. AFAIK there are no batteries that are safe and make economical sense today and I have no clue what you storage thing you allude too that can be built in 1 year (very convenient of you not to mention what exactly it is you think that storage is that will appear this year if there is a demand)
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    The topic is utility-scale storage. For your house, batteries is currently your best alternative. New battery tech is coming online which may turn out to scale down to single home use. Or may not. But even lithium storage gets cheaper every year. The right mix of storage technologies will very widely according to where it serves.
    - simion314 4y ago
      >The topic is utility-scale storage. The topic of this thread is storage that you can have built in 1 year, at max 2. Hydro storage takes a lot more time to be built from scratch.
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        We don't have enough renewable generating capacity to charge storage from, and won't two years from now, either.
        simion314 4y ago
        You mean Germany has enough storage now that is unused and would also be enough to cover the case where gas is replaced with solar? Any numbers that show this , including say 1 winter week for residential and industry consumption?
bayesian_horse 4y ago
Nota bene "and other means". This may include other fossil fuels, even other sources of natural gas in the meantime. Which are still easier to get rid of mid-term than nuclear power. Nuclear power in Germany is not going to happen. We don't like the risk profile, both financially and otherwise. Other nations may see it differently.