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So in the winter everyone just freezes to death since they can't afford heat? That's a solution?

wongarsu 4y ago
You'd obviously have to limit the price fluctuations for consumer contracts. But currently I'm just starting the dishwasher or washing machine when I fill them, but I don't care when they're done as long as it's within ~12 hours. In many places I can get cheaper electricity at night and save a bit by running them then. But with renewables surplus might happen at any time of day, not just at night. A smart meter combined with marginally smart devices would allow us to run time-insensitive things when it's cheap, instead of when it's convenient.
- wumpus 4y ago
  There are electric vehicle chargers that know the price of electricity and time recharging your car to the best time of day.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  It just seems to me like as we move all the very heavy energy consumption like transportation and heating from oil and gas to electricity, small gains like your washing machine are going to be negligible. I'm from a country where in the north the sun goes down for good for a few weeks in the winter. We've managed until now with nuclear but those are all nearing end-of-life and are being shut down and we have no alternatives ready.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    But heating and (battery powered) transportation are perfect examples of time-insensitive demand. I don't care when my car is charged, as long as it's reasonably full in the morning. And if your house has enough thermal mass (like an office building) and you give your heating system some wiggle room (let's say 2 degrees up and down) you can heat a bit above the target when energy is cheap so you don't have to heat as much when it's expensive. If you purpose build the system for it you can do even better, like having an oversized boiler as thermal storage, or ice as cold storage. Those systems exist, they just aren't common because there's little incentive with the way electricity is currently metered.
_ph_ 4y ago
There should be some limit on how far the price varies, but it is an illusion, that electricity costs the same independent of time. For normal household appliances, there isn't too much flexibility - you need light, when it is dark, cook for the meals etc. But with heating and especially with electric cars, flexible costs make a lot of sense. Even more in the industry, which is the larger consumer of electricity and needs incentives, to shape there consumption on availability, as far as it makes sense. It could make sense, for a company to invest into battery storage, if it saves costs. Or alternatively pay the utility companies for providing this service.
- kalleboo 4y ago
  > Even more in the industry, which is the larger consumer of electricity and needs incentives, to shape there consumption on availability, as far as it makes sense The shape of consumption is going to be - industry flees the country, and goes somewhere cheaper (and dirtier)
  - _ph_ 4y ago
    That is unlikely, if the energy is overall cheaper than at a fixed rate. Also, all countries are facing the same challenges with the transition to renewables.
meltedcapacitor 4y ago
Why not spend the winter somewhere naturally warm?

You'd obviously have to limit the price fluctuations for consumer contracts. But currently I'm just starting the dishwasher or washing machine when I fill them, but I don't care when they're done as long as it's within ~12 hours. In many places I can get cheaper electricity at night and save a bit by running them then. But with renewables surplus might happen at any time of day, not just at night. A smart meter combined with marginally smart devices would allow us to run time-insensitive things when it's cheap, instead of when it's convenient.

wumpus 4y ago
There are electric vehicle chargers that know the price of electricity and time recharging your car to the best time of day.
kalleboo 4y ago
It just seems to me like as we move all the very heavy energy consumption like transportation and heating from oil and gas to electricity, small gains like your washing machine are going to be negligible. I'm from a country where in the north the sun goes down for good for a few weeks in the winter. We've managed until now with nuclear but those are all nearing end-of-life and are being shut down and we have no alternatives ready.
- wongarsu 4y ago
  But heating and (battery powered) transportation are perfect examples of time-insensitive demand. I don't care when my car is charged, as long as it's reasonably full in the morning. And if your house has enough thermal mass (like an office building) and you give your heating system some wiggle room (let's say 2 degrees up and down) you can heat a bit above the target when energy is cheap so you don't have to heat as much when it's expensive. If you purpose build the system for it you can do even better, like having an oversized boiler as thermal storage, or ice as cold storage. Those systems exist, they just aren't common because there's little incentive with the way electricity is currently metered.

_ph_ 4y ago

There should be some limit on how far the price varies, but it is an illusion, that electricity costs the same independent of time. For normal household appliances, there isn't too much flexibility - you need light, when it is dark, cook for the meals etc. But with heating and especially with electric cars, flexible costs make a lot of sense. Even more in the industry, which is the larger consumer of electricity and needs incentives, to shape there consumption on availability, as far as it makes sense. It could make sense, for a company to invest into battery storage, if it saves costs. Or alternatively pay the utility companies for providing this service.

kalleboo 4y ago
> Even more in the industry, which is the larger consumer of electricity and needs incentives, to shape there consumption on availability, as far as it makes sense The shape of consumption is going to be - industry flees the country, and goes somewhere cheaper (and dirtier)
- _ph_ 4y ago
  That is unlikely, if the energy is overall cheaper than at a fixed rate. Also, all countries are facing the same challenges with the transition to renewables.

meltedcapacitor 4y ago

Why not spend the winter somewhere naturally warm?