4 ms·

In 2022, there are mechanics people will want for your game to feel good. This will vary from game to game, but I think most games will want coyote time and jum

In 2022, there are mechanics people will want for your game to feel good. This will vary from game to game, but I think most games will want coyote time and jump buffering. https://twitter.com/maddythorson/status/1238338574220546049 https://twitter.com/maddythorson/status/1238338574220546049

greggman3 4y ago
That's a good list, and especially with animation illustrating them, of the types of things games will do to make something feel good.
teddyh 4y ago
They write that all this is in the player’s favor, but it all gets nullified and even negated when levels are designed with these factors in mind: For expert players, the levels are no more difficult than they would be if the levels had been designed without most of these fudges, and for less experienced players, the fudges are effectively undocumented cheat codes which they nevertheless need to learn in order to get good at the game.
- henning 4y ago
  No, they're little affordances to make a challenging game approachable by more people.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    Only if the levels were not designed with these affordances in mind, which I assume they were.
    - henning 4y ago
      Celeste's challenge does not derive from executing individual moves, it's about chaining them together in clever, fun ways. Please list what platformers/software you work on so I can avoid using them.
      - teddyh 4y ago
        Restating your claim is not an argument.
        pharrington 4y ago
        "Only if the levels were not designed with these affordances in mind, which I assume they were." Unless you can name even one level that requires coyote jumps or input buffering, I assume you literally do not know what you're talking about regarding Celeste. Bad games can use literally any mechanic as a crutch to compensate for bad level design. Quality-of-life mechanics at worse will just make an already bad game as bad as it was, and most of the time only serve to make the game better.
        teddyh 4y ago
        > I assume you literally do not know what you're talking about regarding Celeste. This is true; I do not. This is because I was not referring to Celeste in particular, but games with these kinds of fudges in general, and I was careful to point out that my criticism was only applicable when levels were designed to take advantage of these kinds of fudges. If the levels of Celeste, specifically, are not so designed, then what I wrote is not applicable to Celeste.
- bscphil 4y ago
  > it all gets nullified and even negated when levels are designed with these factors in mind I have played Celeste 100% multiple times and have probably 250-300 hours in the game total. To the best of my knowledge, there is no movement in the official game that requires a fudge. It is very carefully designed in that regard. If you have a single counterexample I would be interested in seeing it. However, three clarifications are needed here: * I have played difficult modded levels (or the randomizer) which sometimes do seem to rely on the fudges. This isn't that surprising as the levels are typically designed by and for expert players. * There are cases where the fudge provides negative value, but not because it is required. In Chapter 1, the game actually tries to teach you this; moving platforms will still give you their whole momentum if you're slightly late on jumping off of them (i.e. they've technically stopped moving). In some cases, you don't want their momentum because it will throw you into some spikes. There's a room in Chapter 1 where almost everyone gets thrown into the spikes the first time by getting unexpected momentum. These cases are rare, however. * There are cases where the "leading edge" and "trailing edge" of the fudge are not properly balanced. For example, with the momentum fudge mentioned above once again. When you jump off a moving block, you get momentum depending on how fast it's moving. It will be fastest toward the end of its movement. However, if you are jumping 1 frame after the animation has ended, you will get 100% of the momentum. So if you're struggling to get enough momentum to complete a jump, you will actually do better if you try to do it slightly too late rather than slightly too early. The fudge still isn't required but it can be helpful to lean on it in these specific cases.
  - teddyh 4y ago
    > To the best of my knowledge, there is no movement in the official game that requires a fudge. It is very carefully designed in that regard. Very well then, I stand corrected. It was not my intention to accuse Celeste specifically; I was referring to these kinds of fudges in general. I’m sorry for my careless wording.
- pharrington 4y ago
  In general, said "fudges" compensate for both human imprecision and computer system inconsistency (ie, lag). It feels really bad to fall off a ledge your brain told you you were standing on, and it feels really bad to think a game ate your input when you attempt an action mere frames before the action is allowed.
DANK_YACHT 4y ago
I first played Maddy's games as a kid, starting with Jumper. She is an absolutely amazing level designer. I remember seeing Celeste and thinking, "Wow, that looks just liker Jumper." Lo and behold, they were made by the same person. She's clearly been refining her list of tricks over the last 18 years, but the real magic in her games is her level design. Jumper has no atmosphere, but it just as fun as Celeste.

greggman3 4y ago

That's a good list, and especially with animation illustrating them, of the types of things games will do to make something feel good.

teddyh 4y ago

They write that all this is in the player’s favor, but it all gets nullified and even negated when levels are designed with these factors in mind: For expert players, the levels are no more difficult than they would be if the levels had been designed without most of these fudges, and for less experienced players, the fudges are effectively undocumented cheat codes which they nevertheless need to learn in order to get good at the game.

henning 4y ago
No, they're little affordances to make a challenging game approachable by more people.
- teddyh 4y ago
  Only if the levels were not designed with these affordances in mind, which I assume they were.
  - henning 4y ago
    Celeste's challenge does not derive from executing individual moves, it's about chaining them together in clever, fun ways. Please list what platformers/software you work on so I can avoid using them.
    - teddyh 4y ago
      Restating your claim is not an argument.
      - pharrington 4y ago
        "Only if the levels were not designed with these affordances in mind, which I assume they were." Unless you can name even one level that requires coyote jumps or input buffering, I assume you literally do not know what you're talking about regarding Celeste. Bad games can use literally any mechanic as a crutch to compensate for bad level design. Quality-of-life mechanics at worse will just make an already bad game as bad as it was, and most of the time only serve to make the game better.
        teddyh 4y ago
        > I assume you literally do not know what you're talking about regarding Celeste. This is true; I do not. This is because I was not referring to Celeste in particular, but games with these kinds of fudges in general, and I was careful to point out that my criticism was only applicable when levels were designed to take advantage of these kinds of fudges. If the levels of Celeste, specifically, are not so designed, then what I wrote is not applicable to Celeste.
bscphil 4y ago
> it all gets nullified and even negated when levels are designed with these factors in mind I have played Celeste 100% multiple times and have probably 250-300 hours in the game total. To the best of my knowledge, there is no movement in the official game that requires a fudge. It is very carefully designed in that regard. If you have a single counterexample I would be interested in seeing it. However, three clarifications are needed here: * I have played difficult modded levels (or the randomizer) which sometimes do seem to rely on the fudges. This isn't that surprising as the levels are typically designed by and for expert players. * There are cases where the fudge provides negative value, but not because it is required. In Chapter 1, the game actually tries to teach you this; moving platforms will still give you their whole momentum if you're slightly late on jumping off of them (i.e. they've technically stopped moving). In some cases, you don't want their momentum because it will throw you into some spikes. There's a room in Chapter 1 where almost everyone gets thrown into the spikes the first time by getting unexpected momentum. These cases are rare, however. * There are cases where the "leading edge" and "trailing edge" of the fudge are not properly balanced. For example, with the momentum fudge mentioned above once again. When you jump off a moving block, you get momentum depending on how fast it's moving. It will be fastest toward the end of its movement. However, if you are jumping 1 frame after the animation has ended, you will get 100% of the momentum. So if you're struggling to get enough momentum to complete a jump, you will actually do better if you try to do it slightly too late rather than slightly too early. The fudge still isn't required but it can be helpful to lean on it in these specific cases.
- teddyh 4y ago
  > To the best of my knowledge, there is no movement in the official game that requires a fudge. It is very carefully designed in that regard. Very well then, I stand corrected. It was not my intention to accuse Celeste specifically; I was referring to these kinds of fudges in general. I’m sorry for my careless wording.
pharrington 4y ago
In general, said "fudges" compensate for both human imprecision and computer system inconsistency (ie, lag). It feels really bad to fall off a ledge your brain told you you were standing on, and it feels really bad to think a game ate your input when you attempt an action mere frames before the action is allowed.

DANK_YACHT 4y ago

I first played Maddy's games as a kid, starting with Jumper. She is an absolutely amazing level designer. I remember seeing Celeste and thinking, "Wow, that looks just liker Jumper." Lo and behold, they were made by the same person. She's clearly been refining her list of tricks over the last 18 years, but the real magic in her games is her level design. Jumper has no atmosphere, but it just as fun as Celeste.