4 ms·

I don't have an education section on my resume, as I'm a high school dropout myself. Last year I was looking for a new job and shot my resume to probably a doz

by daeken 15y ago

I don't have an education section on my resume, as I'm a high school dropout myself. Last year I was looking for a new job and shot my resume to probably a dozen different companies. Of those, the only company who asked about the lack of an education section was Bloomberg (of the ~8 people I had in-person interviews with, at least half of them asked me about it, in fact, which told me a lot about what the company was looking for). I'm not sure if it's indicative of the tech market at large, but no one else batted an eye at my lack of an education section and focused purely on my skills and experience.

natrius 15y ago
I always ask, not because it's required, but because the answer is often enlightening. Judging companies for asking isn't reasonable.
- daeken 15y ago
  For me, interviewing with a company is as much about me judging whether or not the company is a good fit for me as it is them judging whether or not I'm a good fit for them. If it's clear from the interviewers that they're looking for someone with a college degree and a CS background, then not only am I not a good fit for them, they're not a good fit for me. With the ability to choose to work for the vast majority of tech companies, I'd rather err on the side of being very picky about who I spend my time with. In the case of Bloomberg, those who asked me about my education were clearly biased (not in the question itself, but in the context, tone, etc) against those who are self-educated, and that's not at all the environment I want to work in.
  - natrius 15y ago
    Ok, that makes plenty of sense.
- tptacek 15y ago
  In the mid-90s I got reasonably far down the road with an interview at DE Shaw / Juno and stopped it cold when they demanded school transcripts. I guess I'm unreasonable, but, if you're looking for data points: hi, I'm a candidate who will turn you down cold if you require school information from me. For a long time, I thought this was a New York thing, but, no; I got an offer from a very excellent NY tech/finance company a few years before we started Matasano, and nobody there was dumb enough to want to see my report cards.
  - bane 15y ago
    Transcripts are a bit much. You should after all have some level of trust in the people you are hiring. Sounds like you dodged a bullet.
  - Daniel_Newby 15y ago
    I read that Google asks for it, but they are a bit, er, happy when it comes to statistical analysis. IIRC they were not impressed by the statistical power of transcripts.
    - lurker17 15y ago
      And yet they require transcripts (or did a few years ago). Maybe they've learned from past mistakes? Or their model can't handle NA values on some features?
      - jarek 15y ago
        Google still asks at least new grads for transcripts as of this month.
      - Daniel_Newby 15y ago
        The source I read said he never got around to chasing down a transcript and nobody complained. I think it reasonable to require a transcript for new graduates.
  - awj 15y ago
    There's a bit of space between "there's no education listed on your resume, what's up with that?" and "give us every ounce of data there is to be had about you being in school." The first one is reasonable. The second one isn't, and in my opinion is also a waste of time.
    - tptacek 15y ago
      I'm really trying to imagine where the "what's up with that" would even come up in any of the good interviews I've had. Who has time to waste with that? The best interviewers I've ever dealt with had me on my ass with algorithms, distributed systems, and concurrency questions moments after starting. I agree, asking "where'd you go to school" isn't particularly offensive.
gaius 15y ago
I always ask this, but not for the reason you think: it's so that I, as an interviewer, can adapt the interview to you. Recent example, one candidate had no idea what I meant by "principle of locality", but I probed a bit, and he understood it perfectly well: but lacking a formal CS education, he didn't have the vocabulary. Same with big-O notation, some guys have never heard of it, but show them a code snippet and they'll tell you straight away how efficient it is.

by daeken 15y ago

natrius 15y ago

I always ask, not because it's required, but because the answer is often enlightening. Judging companies for asking isn't reasonable.

daeken 15y ago
For me, interviewing with a company is as much about me judging whether or not the company is a good fit for me as it is them judging whether or not I'm a good fit for them. If it's clear from the interviewers that they're looking for someone with a college degree and a CS background, then not only am I not a good fit for them, they're not a good fit for me. With the ability to choose to work for the vast majority of tech companies, I'd rather err on the side of being very picky about who I spend my time with. In the case of Bloomberg, those who asked me about my education were clearly biased (not in the question itself, but in the context, tone, etc) against those who are self-educated, and that's not at all the environment I want to work in.
- natrius 15y ago
  Ok, that makes plenty of sense.
tptacek 15y ago
In the mid-90s I got reasonably far down the road with an interview at DE Shaw / Juno and stopped it cold when they demanded school transcripts. I guess I'm unreasonable, but, if you're looking for data points: hi, I'm a candidate who will turn you down cold if you require school information from me. For a long time, I thought this was a New York thing, but, no; I got an offer from a very excellent NY tech/finance company a few years before we started Matasano, and nobody there was dumb enough to want to see my report cards.
- bane 15y ago
  Transcripts are a bit much. You should after all have some level of trust in the people you are hiring. Sounds like you dodged a bullet.
- Daniel_Newby 15y ago
  I read that Google asks for it, but they are a bit, er, happy when it comes to statistical analysis. IIRC they were not impressed by the statistical power of transcripts.
  - lurker17 15y ago
    And yet they require transcripts (or did a few years ago). Maybe they've learned from past mistakes? Or their model can't handle NA values on some features?
    - jarek 15y ago
      Google still asks at least new grads for transcripts as of this month.
    - Daniel_Newby 15y ago
      The source I read said he never got around to chasing down a transcript and nobody complained. I think it reasonable to require a transcript for new graduates.
- awj 15y ago
  There's a bit of space between "there's no education listed on your resume, what's up with that?" and "give us every ounce of data there is to be had about you being in school." The first one is reasonable. The second one isn't, and in my opinion is also a waste of time.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    I'm really trying to imagine where the "what's up with that" would even come up in any of the good interviews I've had. Who has time to waste with that? The best interviewers I've ever dealt with had me on my ass with algorithms, distributed systems, and concurrency questions moments after starting. I agree, asking "where'd you go to school" isn't particularly offensive.

gaius 15y ago

I always ask this, but not for the reason you think: it's so that I, as an interviewer, can adapt the interview to you. Recent example, one candidate had no idea what I meant by "principle of locality", but I probed a bit, and he understood it perfectly well: but lacking a formal CS education, he didn't have the vocabulary. Same with big-O notation, some guys have never heard of it, but show them a code snippet and they'll tell you straight away how efficient it is.