4 ms·

> Still, he's smart, seems to understand all the material, and he still has a couple of years to work on his problems before his exams, so with enough work from

> Still, he's smart, seems to understand all the material, and he still has a couple of years to work on his problems before his exams, so with enough work from him, school, us, and the extra tutoring we fortunately can afford for him, he'll probably be okay. But there are probably tons of kids far worse off than he is. It's sad to me that this is the way things work. Being smart and understanding the material are the important endpoints. If he's already achieving those then it's backwards to make him do lots of extra work just to jump through the hoops of exams.

philipov 4y ago
I thought so too, until I got to a point in my education where it actually required work to continue making process, and the discipline to do it wasn't there. Habits are hard to break, and forming healthy study habits early is as valuable a result of education as the acquisition of that day's knowledge. Maybe more important. The school system often fails to do that effectively, but their failure does not invalidate the goal.
- humanrebar 4y ago
  True, but a lot of people, including underage people, are motivated by reason. School ideally goes at an appropriate pace to challenge them. Partly so they pick up good study habits in a non-contrived scenario with obvious benefits. Saying busy work is important because they might need study habits in five years is not motivating.
  - philipov 4y ago
    > Being smart and understanding the material are the important endpoints. This statement contains a serious misapprehension and requires revision. My grandfather would often say that "understanding" swimming won't help you when you're drowning. You need to be able to swim. You can't get to a point where you can swim through mathematics without solving a lot of math problems. You don't become good at something by stopping when you obtain superficial understanding. You become good through practice. I can go read a tutorial on Rust and "understand" the words on the page, and I may even be able to explain the borrow checker to you in my own words. But I won't be able to program in Rust until I spend a lot of time practicing it. The important endpoint is not what you can understand, but what you can do.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Exactly. Being smart is not the end point, it's the starting point. Being able to apply it effectively is the end point.
    - toast0 4y ago
      It's really hard to practice and develop study skills with material that the student is proficient in without effort. You can understand what study skills are, but not really apply them and experience them working. Study skills can be super important, and it's nicer to develop them early rather than just in time in your third year of undergrad, but access to challenging subjects at a challenging pace in high school or earlier is hard to come by for some. In some cases, there's a hoop jumping requirement to get more challenging work, and hoop jumping is an important life skill, so there's that; but sometimes, there's no way to get more challenging work in the school system.
      - philipov 4y ago
        That is how the school system fails, but it does not justify the mistaken belief common to so many victims of talent that understanding and intellect are the end goal, rather than a starting point. It does not justify avoiding practice. In deciding how the school system should better serve its function, one must first have a proper apprehension of what that function is. It is harmful to believe this myth that "understanding the material" is the fulfillment of education. It does not identify the correct measure of success.
      - digisign 4y ago
        If you're bored, move forward in the material on your own. I can't remember a school ever trying to stop me from starting the next chapter. Go far enough and you may be moved up a year.
  - mcv 4y ago
    > School ideally goes at an appropriate pace to challenge them. I think it's impossible for school to go at an appropriate pace for everybody, because all students are different and struggle with different things. Half will be bored, the other half struggling to keep up. And in my son, those halves definitely overlap. In primary school, he did every possible gifted program they had and then some, skipped a grade, and did all his regular school work in half the time the other kids had. And now he's struggling with everything, doesn't know how to start work, finish work or plan it (despite planning being supposedly a primary focus of his school), and he gets tons of failing grades mostly because he simply doesn't submit his work or misses his tests.
    - humanrebar 4y ago
      I think that's true for the given model of homogeneous, large classroom instruction. I suspect we'll see major revisions in that model in the coming century, at least for those with resources.
      - mcv 4y ago
        He's in a Montessori school which is supposed to emphasize independent work and planning, but he still has tests and has to hand in assignments, and he clearly fails to plan them or work independently on them. I did a lot better with the homogenous large classroom instruction I got back in the day. Or at least I did better in school. Once I went to university and had to plan everything myself and work independently on it, that's where I started failing. Maybe it's better to fail early? I don't know.
watwut 4y ago
Understanding why something works and being able to put that in use are often two different things.
- OscarCunningham 4y ago
  I agree. I just don't think spending extra time on homework and paying for tutors is going to help with the latter.
  - watwut 4y ago
    If the failure is due to inability to put that understanding into practice, which is actually very likely, then tutoring can actually help. Not every failure in exam is hopeless-helpless situation.
    - mcv 4y ago
      My son's challenges are primarily in planning the work, starting the work, and finishing the work. And those are things this particular tutoring is supposed to really help with.
  - philipov 4y ago
    Between 7th and 8th grade, I went to a summer camp where I learned logic and digital circuits by working hands-on with real components and building working devices out of them. Our final project was to design and construct a controller for a vending machine. Those are the sorts of things that help.
mcv 4y ago
I think it really depends on the student and what their primary challenges are. School isn't merely about accumulating knowledge, it's about learning how to learn, how to work, how to plan, etc. And those are the issues my son is struggling with. Stuff he's interested in, he picks up very quickly. But actual projects he needs to finish, he doesn't finish. Or he doesn't even know how to start. Or he finishes them halfway and then doesn't submit them. He frequently fails to read the assignment properly and ends up doing duplicate work as a result. He doesn't study for a test that should have been easy for him. He keeps postponing stuff that's already overdue. These are the things he needs to learn, and they're probably a lot more important to the rest of his life than French grammar.

philipov 4y ago

I thought so too, until I got to a point in my education where it actually required work to continue making process, and the discipline to do it wasn't there. Habits are hard to break, and forming healthy study habits early is as valuable a result of education as the acquisition of that day's knowledge. Maybe more important. The school system often fails to do that effectively, but their failure does not invalidate the goal.

humanrebar 4y ago
True, but a lot of people, including underage people, are motivated by reason. School ideally goes at an appropriate pace to challenge them. Partly so they pick up good study habits in a non-contrived scenario with obvious benefits. Saying busy work is important because they might need study habits in five years is not motivating.
- philipov 4y ago
  > Being smart and understanding the material are the important endpoints. This statement contains a serious misapprehension and requires revision. My grandfather would often say that "understanding" swimming won't help you when you're drowning. You need to be able to swim. You can't get to a point where you can swim through mathematics without solving a lot of math problems. You don't become good at something by stopping when you obtain superficial understanding. You become good through practice. I can go read a tutorial on Rust and "understand" the words on the page, and I may even be able to explain the borrow checker to you in my own words. But I won't be able to program in Rust until I spend a lot of time practicing it. The important endpoint is not what you can understand, but what you can do.
  - mcv 4y ago
    Exactly. Being smart is not the end point, it's the starting point. Being able to apply it effectively is the end point.
  - toast0 4y ago
    It's really hard to practice and develop study skills with material that the student is proficient in without effort. You can understand what study skills are, but not really apply them and experience them working. Study skills can be super important, and it's nicer to develop them early rather than just in time in your third year of undergrad, but access to challenging subjects at a challenging pace in high school or earlier is hard to come by for some. In some cases, there's a hoop jumping requirement to get more challenging work, and hoop jumping is an important life skill, so there's that; but sometimes, there's no way to get more challenging work in the school system.
    - philipov 4y ago
      That is how the school system fails, but it does not justify the mistaken belief common to so many victims of talent that understanding and intellect are the end goal, rather than a starting point. It does not justify avoiding practice. In deciding how the school system should better serve its function, one must first have a proper apprehension of what that function is. It is harmful to believe this myth that "understanding the material" is the fulfillment of education. It does not identify the correct measure of success.
    - digisign 4y ago
      If you're bored, move forward in the material on your own. I can't remember a school ever trying to stop me from starting the next chapter. Go far enough and you may be moved up a year.
- mcv 4y ago
  > School ideally goes at an appropriate pace to challenge them. I think it's impossible for school to go at an appropriate pace for everybody, because all students are different and struggle with different things. Half will be bored, the other half struggling to keep up. And in my son, those halves definitely overlap. In primary school, he did every possible gifted program they had and then some, skipped a grade, and did all his regular school work in half the time the other kids had. And now he's struggling with everything, doesn't know how to start work, finish work or plan it (despite planning being supposedly a primary focus of his school), and he gets tons of failing grades mostly because he simply doesn't submit his work or misses his tests.
  - humanrebar 4y ago
    I think that's true for the given model of homogeneous, large classroom instruction. I suspect we'll see major revisions in that model in the coming century, at least for those with resources.
    - mcv 4y ago
      He's in a Montessori school which is supposed to emphasize independent work and planning, but he still has tests and has to hand in assignments, and he clearly fails to plan them or work independently on them. I did a lot better with the homogenous large classroom instruction I got back in the day. Or at least I did better in school. Once I went to university and had to plan everything myself and work independently on it, that's where I started failing. Maybe it's better to fail early? I don't know.

watwut 4y ago

Understanding why something works and being able to put that in use are often two different things.

OscarCunningham 4y ago
I agree. I just don't think spending extra time on homework and paying for tutors is going to help with the latter.
- watwut 4y ago
  If the failure is due to inability to put that understanding into practice, which is actually very likely, then tutoring can actually help. Not every failure in exam is hopeless-helpless situation.
  - mcv 4y ago
    My son's challenges are primarily in planning the work, starting the work, and finishing the work. And those are things this particular tutoring is supposed to really help with.
- philipov 4y ago
  Between 7th and 8th grade, I went to a summer camp where I learned logic and digital circuits by working hands-on with real components and building working devices out of them. Our final project was to design and construct a controller for a vending machine. Those are the sorts of things that help.

mcv 4y ago

I think it really depends on the student and what their primary challenges are. School isn't merely about accumulating knowledge, it's about learning how to learn, how to work, how to plan, etc. And those are the issues my son is struggling with. Stuff he's interested in, he picks up very quickly. But actual projects he needs to finish, he doesn't finish. Or he doesn't even know how to start. Or he finishes them halfway and then doesn't submit them. He frequently fails to read the assignment properly and ends up doing duplicate work as a result. He doesn't study for a test that should have been easy for him. He keeps postponing stuff that's already overdue. These are the things he needs to learn, and they're probably a lot more important to the rest of his life than French grammar.