4 ms·

This is a worrisome line of reasoning -- that you can't act to protect children until you have 'all the data' about this or that narrow threat vector.

croon 4y ago
It's a worrisome dilemma, in which you are forced to reason. There is no win scenario, only varying degrees of unknown loss states.
- giantg2 4y ago
  And this highlights that you are not free to make that decision and reason for yourself- the government mandated what they thought is best.
- wellpast 4y ago
  Fair. The concern, however, is when the state forces everyone to reason one particular way. The other concern is that arguing from a who has 'all the data' position is seriously fraught ... but the state and its mandates get underwritten when enough people embrace this fraught & simplistic mentality.
- mattcwilson 4y ago
  It’s not, though. “Dilemma” implies only two possibilities, but “varying degrees” implies many. This argument is incoherent. There were lots of alternate futures, ranging from “the whole world, everywhere, utterly locked down schools for the past 2+ years” to “the whole world, everywhere, utterly refused to lock down schools for the past 2+ years”, and everywhere in between in terms of which schools, which policies, when, and for how long. We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes.
  - croon 4y ago
    Merriam Webster [0] disagrees with your limiting definition (while etymologically correct). And even if it hadn't, it doesn't affect the coherence of the argument. > We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes. Sure, and again, after the fact. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma
    - mattcwilson 4y ago
      Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic. Refusing to take action as soon as data were available to justify better methods got people killed. (Thanks for the link, btw. Had no idea “dildo” dates to the 16th century. The things you learn...)
      - croon 4y ago
        > Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic. That I have no idea if you would have wanted more lockdown or less lockdown or more masks or less masks, etc, etc, should indicate the difficulty in decision making. But for the record, I'm not defending any decisions made by any government, I'm merely defending the difficulty of the process, and they will be dragged for any decision they make regardless because, again, there is no win scenario in a pandemic.

croon 4y ago

It's a worrisome dilemma, in which you are forced to reason. There is no win scenario, only varying degrees of unknown loss states.

giantg2 4y ago
And this highlights that you are not free to make that decision and reason for yourself- the government mandated what they thought is best.
wellpast 4y ago
Fair. The concern, however, is when the state forces everyone to reason one particular way. The other concern is that arguing from a who has 'all the data' position is seriously fraught ... but the state and its mandates get underwritten when enough people embrace this fraught & simplistic mentality.
mattcwilson 4y ago
It’s not, though. “Dilemma” implies only two possibilities, but “varying degrees” implies many. This argument is incoherent. There were lots of alternate futures, ranging from “the whole world, everywhere, utterly locked down schools for the past 2+ years” to “the whole world, everywhere, utterly refused to lock down schools for the past 2+ years”, and everywhere in between in terms of which schools, which policies, when, and for how long. We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes.
- croon 4y ago
  Merriam Webster [0] disagrees with your limiting definition (while etymologically correct). And even if it hadn't, it doesn't affect the coherence of the argument. > We can definitely talk about what sets of choices would have had better outcomes. Sure, and again, after the fact. [0] https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dilemma
  - mattcwilson 4y ago
    Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic. Refusing to take action as soon as data were available to justify better methods got people killed. (Thanks for the link, btw. Had no idea “dildo” dates to the 16th century. The things you learn...)
    - croon 4y ago
      > Handwringing cowardice and whimpering inaction got people killed in this pandemic. That I have no idea if you would have wanted more lockdown or less lockdown or more masks or less masks, etc, etc, should indicate the difficulty in decision making. But for the record, I'm not defending any decisions made by any government, I'm merely defending the difficulty of the process, and they will be dragged for any decision they make regardless because, again, there is no win scenario in a pandemic.