4 ms·

I was at the Parthenon a few weeks ago. Had a guide who was an archaeologist and art historian. He casually mentioned the “theft” by the UK of parts of the Part

I was at the Parthenon a few weeks ago. Had a guide who was an archaeologist and art historian. He casually mentioned the “theft” by the UK of parts of the Parthenon. I had no idea how evocative and current this issue was. This solution seems a reasonable one, it was rather odd to think that Greece would need to make replicas to place in their own historical sites. However, I suppose if the British Museum complied with this request the cylinder of Cyrus would be next and then hundreds of other artefacts. “Fake” artefacts are fine for tourists to look at but not very useful for Scholarship, return of artefacts would be a huge shift of power in Scholarship. Perhaps Greece could add envelopes more moral force to their argument by showing how well they support others scholars access to artefacts and that having the originals all together in Greece would enrich and improve access for all.

ngcc_hk 4y ago
But can they keep it in a polluted Greek environment
jacquesm 4y ago
> However, I suppose if the British Museum complied with this request the cylinder of Cyrus would be next and then hundreds of other artefacts. What's wrong with that? Robbed treasure should be returned.
- noneeeed 4y ago
  Yeah. I'm British, I have zero problem returning the parthanon marbles. Of all the things in the British Museum it's probably the most obvious one to return: it's unique, it's location specific and it's part of something else that would be immesurably enhanced by it's reconstitution. It's also not that interesting in the museum context. I don't actually think they would lose anything much by returning it. It's become like the Mona Lisa, totemtic, but not actually that interesting as an exhibit. I was pretty underwhelmed when I saw it in its broken state. I would much rather other people got to see a reconstructed Parthanon then I get to see the broken parts. Unfortunately it's become such a heated topic I'm not sure I see a time when it gets returned without Greece having some kind of leverage over the UK.
  - padraic7a 4y ago
    "Unfortunately it's become such a heated topic I'm not sure I see a time when it gets returned without Greece having some kind of leverage over the UK" I don't understand your point here. Are you suggesting that returning it should be postponed because it would be an admission of bad practice or wrong doing of some kind?
    - detaro 4y ago
      Given the first sentence of their comment, how do you think that they are suggesting that it should not be returned?
    - noneeeed 4y ago
      I'm not saying it shouldn't be returned, I'm saying it won't be, not in the near future. The Parthanon marbles are a political touchstone/dog-whistle in the UK, especially for people who view the empire in a largely positive light. Views like that are sufficiently widespread that it would be hard to get the sufficient public support for one of the two major political parties to back their return. Corbyn vowed to, but his wing of the Labour party are out of power at the moment. If they were to come back we might see a change in attitude, but they would be strongly attacked for it. I can't find any indication of the current Labour leadership's position, I would expect them to dodge the issue as the try to appeal to the center.
      - pasabagi 4y ago
        I guess the level of public knowledge about the British Empire is really very low. I just found out the other day that British gunboats shelled Wanzou district in the 1920s, killing anywhere between a handful to about a thousand people (depending on source). There are just so many 'incidents' like this that are deeply present abroad (imagine if the French had shelled Liverpool in the 20's!) but really obscure at home. (The burning of the summer palace is another Chinese example.
        noneeeed 4y ago
- barry-cotter 4y ago
  Quite. The Dutch should return the Netherlands to the Hapsburgs, or possibly to the Romans or Belgii.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    You seem to enjoy trying to derail conversations, why do you do this?
    - barry-cotter 4y ago
      Obvious analogies are obvious.
      - bee_rider 4y ago
        Brilliant meta-derail, to bring up obvious analogies when discussing your bizarrely stretched and non-obvious one.
        barry-cotter 4y ago
        Different people have different bases of knowledge, experience, principles and moral philosophies. It is obvious to the average Serb that Kosovo is rightfully part of Serbia while many others would disagree. The Aztecs find it obvious that industrial scale human sacrifice was morally correct. Standpoint epistemology, do you dig it?
        bee_rider 4y ago
        I guess, if you say so. I'll have to keep in mind that "stealing is OK" is part of the British moral framework, I was unaware of that, thanks for the insight.
        dahfizz 4y ago
        The legal owner of the Parthenon gave Elgin the right to take the marbles. The issue is that the modern day owners of the Parthenon dont recognize the legitimatecy of that transaction. It's a bit more muddy than straight up theft. I think the analogy to other historical issues is apt. Who is the rightful occupant of modern day Iran? If you could trace your lineage to an assyrian who owned a plot of land in Nineveh, and was displaced by the Babylonians, should you be able to kick out the current occupant? What if another person came along, and could prove their family owned the land under Babylonian rule but was displaced by the Persians?
- kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
  The way the British acquired them does look really sketchy. Like, indefensible. Time to send them back.
YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago
Those are side issues. The main issue is that the marbles were stolen and we ask that they are returned. Everything else is haggling with our stolen cultural treasures. And, yes, of course, the British should give back everything else their bandit hordes pillaged and looted from the lands they invaded.
- danaos 4y ago
  It is also important to note the inept British museum. Water dripping from the ceiling! [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WEFQMuWn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WEFQMuWn8
Kaibeezy 4y ago
Other articles on this matter have pointed out that good scans will enable CNC replicas with sub-millimeter accuracy, in marble from close to the original quarry sites. Good for tourists and scholars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Digital_Archaeology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Digital_Archaeol...

ngcc_hk 4y ago

But can they keep it in a polluted Greek environment

jacquesm 4y ago

> However, I suppose if the British Museum complied with this request the cylinder of Cyrus would be next and then hundreds of other artefacts. What's wrong with that? Robbed treasure should be returned.

noneeeed 4y ago
Yeah. I'm British, I have zero problem returning the parthanon marbles. Of all the things in the British Museum it's probably the most obvious one to return: it's unique, it's location specific and it's part of something else that would be immesurably enhanced by it's reconstitution. It's also not that interesting in the museum context. I don't actually think they would lose anything much by returning it. It's become like the Mona Lisa, totemtic, but not actually that interesting as an exhibit. I was pretty underwhelmed when I saw it in its broken state. I would much rather other people got to see a reconstructed Parthanon then I get to see the broken parts. Unfortunately it's become such a heated topic I'm not sure I see a time when it gets returned without Greece having some kind of leverage over the UK.
- padraic7a 4y ago
  "Unfortunately it's become such a heated topic I'm not sure I see a time when it gets returned without Greece having some kind of leverage over the UK" I don't understand your point here. Are you suggesting that returning it should be postponed because it would be an admission of bad practice or wrong doing of some kind?
  - detaro 4y ago
    Given the first sentence of their comment, how do you think that they are suggesting that it should not be returned?
  - noneeeed 4y ago
    I'm not saying it shouldn't be returned, I'm saying it won't be, not in the near future. The Parthanon marbles are a political touchstone/dog-whistle in the UK, especially for people who view the empire in a largely positive light. Views like that are sufficiently widespread that it would be hard to get the sufficient public support for one of the two major political parties to back their return. Corbyn vowed to, but his wing of the Labour party are out of power at the moment. If they were to come back we might see a change in attitude, but they would be strongly attacked for it. I can't find any indication of the current Labour leadership's position, I would expect them to dodge the issue as the try to appeal to the center.
    - pasabagi 4y ago
      I guess the level of public knowledge about the British Empire is really very low. I just found out the other day that British gunboats shelled Wanzou district in the 1920s, killing anywhere between a handful to about a thousand people (depending on source). There are just so many 'incidents' like this that are deeply present abroad (imagine if the French had shelled Liverpool in the 20's!) but really obscure at home. (The burning of the summer palace is another Chinese example.
      - noneeeed 4y ago
barry-cotter 4y ago
Quite. The Dutch should return the Netherlands to the Hapsburgs, or possibly to the Romans or Belgii.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  You seem to enjoy trying to derail conversations, why do you do this?
  - barry-cotter 4y ago
    Obvious analogies are obvious.
    - bee_rider 4y ago
      Brilliant meta-derail, to bring up obvious analogies when discussing your bizarrely stretched and non-obvious one.
      - barry-cotter 4y ago
        Different people have different bases of knowledge, experience, principles and moral philosophies. It is obvious to the average Serb that Kosovo is rightfully part of Serbia while many others would disagree. The Aztecs find it obvious that industrial scale human sacrifice was morally correct. Standpoint epistemology, do you dig it?
        bee_rider 4y ago
        I guess, if you say so. I'll have to keep in mind that "stealing is OK" is part of the British moral framework, I was unaware of that, thanks for the insight.
        dahfizz 4y ago
        The legal owner of the Parthenon gave Elgin the right to take the marbles. The issue is that the modern day owners of the Parthenon dont recognize the legitimatecy of that transaction. It's a bit more muddy than straight up theft. I think the analogy to other historical issues is apt. Who is the rightful occupant of modern day Iran? If you could trace your lineage to an assyrian who owned a plot of land in Nineveh, and was displaced by the Babylonians, should you be able to kick out the current occupant? What if another person came along, and could prove their family owned the land under Babylonian rule but was displaced by the Persians?
kwertyoowiyop 4y ago
The way the British acquired them does look really sketchy. Like, indefensible. Time to send them back.

YeGoblynQueenne 4y ago

Those are side issues. The main issue is that the marbles were stolen and we ask that they are returned. Everything else is haggling with our stolen cultural treasures. And, yes, of course, the British should give back everything else their bandit hordes pillaged and looted from the lands they invaded.

danaos 4y ago
It is also important to note the inept British museum. Water dripping from the ceiling! [1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WEFQMuWn8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4WEFQMuWn8

Kaibeezy 4y ago

Other articles on this matter have pointed out that good scans will enable CNC replicas with sub-millimeter accuracy, in marble from close to the original quarry sites. Good for tourists and scholars? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Digital_Archaeology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Digital_Archaeol...