5 ms·

> Related to welfare, 60% of people pay ZERO or NEGATIVE income taxes Are you against a progressive tax rate?

by SahAssar 4y ago

InTheArena 4y ago
Progressive tax rate implies that taxes actually being paid at some rate. That’s not the case here
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > Progressive tax rate implies that taxes actually being paid at some rate. That’s not the case here. Yes it is. Both zero and negative numbers have been recognized as actual values for...quite a long time. Progressive taxation means that the first derivative of taxes is on average decreasing with increasing income, it does not imply that taxes (or, a fortiori, as the upthread comment is actually referring to, the net of taxes less transfers) is always positive.
yucky 4y ago
What rate should the people paying 0 in federal income tax (roughly half of the population) actually pay in order to make the progressive tax system work better?
- claudiulodro 4y ago
  Follow up question: what rate should the 25% of the population who are minors[1] and the half of older adults who are retired[2] pay? Combined, these groups are ~40% of the US population as far as I can tell. [1] https://www.aecf.org/resources/the-changing-child-population-of-the-united-states#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20number%20of%20children,all%20time%20low%20of%2024%25 https://www.aecf.org/resources/the-changing-child-population.... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/04/amid-the-pandemic-a-rising-share-of-older-u-s-adults-are-now-retired/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/04/amid-the-pa...
hajile 4y ago
I'm not strictly against the idea, but progressive tax rates are NEVER progressive. The rich just suppress wages and use that money to pay the extra amount they're charged. They use TONS of games to hide money or claim losses where none exist. Even worse, the money they keep from your paycheck that doesn't stay in their pocket due to tax loopholes gets them even more influence with politicians. No matter how you slice that, the poor see ZERO benefit from this type of progressive tax. Sales taxes are MUCH better. If the poor need a break, then cut sales taxes on food, medicine, and other subsistence items. Now everyone pays for exactly what they use. Because it is upfront, there are fewer games to be played. Because it is exchanged for an immediate good or service, all the crazy "losses" claims also go away. You trading stocks? Tax time for you (this will also cut down on day trading and stabilize the stock market). You trying to move your money into something to hedge? Tax time for you. Taking out a massive loan backed by your stocks? Maybe we should tax that too. Getting a huge house with lots of stuff driving up your carbon footprint? Tax all that stuff too. This tax seems like it's ACTUALLY progressive. It punishes extravagant spending and (through inflation) it taxes leaving your liquid assets sitting around. People don't have to spend billions every year on personal income tax filing either.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The rich just suppress wages and use that money to pay the extra amount they're charge Implausible. If “the rich” have the unconstrained power to set wages that this requires, they aren't going to refrain from fully using it depending on tax rates. All that changes is that with higher taxes on them, more of what they squeeze is taken from them and used for other purposes.
  - hajile 4y ago

> Related to welfare, 60% of people pay ZERO or NEGATIVE income taxes Are you against a progressive tax rate?

InTheArena 4y ago

Progressive tax rate implies that taxes actually being paid at some rate. That’s not the case here

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Progressive tax rate implies that taxes actually being paid at some rate. That’s not the case here. Yes it is. Both zero and negative numbers have been recognized as actual values for...quite a long time. Progressive taxation means that the first derivative of taxes is on average decreasing with increasing income, it does not imply that taxes (or, a fortiori, as the upthread comment is actually referring to, the net of taxes less transfers) is always positive.

yucky 4y ago

What rate should the people paying 0 in federal income tax (roughly half of the population) actually pay in order to make the progressive tax system work better?

claudiulodro 4y ago
Follow up question: what rate should the 25% of the population who are minors[1] and the half of older adults who are retired[2] pay? Combined, these groups are ~40% of the US population as far as I can tell. [1] https://www.aecf.org/resources/the-changing-child-population-of-the-united-states#:~:text=Today%2C%20the%20number%20of%20children,all%20time%20low%20of%2024%25 https://www.aecf.org/resources/the-changing-child-population.... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/04/amid-the-pandemic-a-rising-share-of-older-u-s-adults-are-now-retired/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/11/04/amid-the-pa...

hajile 4y ago

I'm not strictly against the idea, but progressive tax rates are NEVER progressive. The rich just suppress wages and use that money to pay the extra amount they're charged. They use TONS of games to hide money or claim losses where none exist. Even worse, the money they keep from your paycheck that doesn't stay in their pocket due to tax loopholes gets them even more influence with politicians. No matter how you slice that, the poor see ZERO benefit from this type of progressive tax. Sales taxes are MUCH better. If the poor need a break, then cut sales taxes on food, medicine, and other subsistence items. Now everyone pays for exactly what they use. Because it is upfront, there are fewer games to be played. Because it is exchanged for an immediate good or service, all the crazy "losses" claims also go away. You trading stocks? Tax time for you (this will also cut down on day trading and stabilize the stock market). You trying to move your money into something to hedge? Tax time for you. Taking out a massive loan backed by your stocks? Maybe we should tax that too. Getting a huge house with lots of stuff driving up your carbon footprint? Tax all that stuff too. This tax seems like it's ACTUALLY progressive. It punishes extravagant spending and (through inflation) it taxes leaving your liquid assets sitting around. People don't have to spend billions every year on personal income tax filing either.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> The rich just suppress wages and use that money to pay the extra amount they're charge Implausible. If “the rich” have the unconstrained power to set wages that this requires, they aren't going to refrain from fully using it depending on tax rates. All that changes is that with higher taxes on them, more of what they squeeze is taken from them and used for other purposes.
- hajile 4y ago