6 ms·

Expired patent of the day: Lego

147 points by gmodena 15y ago

nobody3141 15y ago
" Judges agreed with experts who said a brick was a technical shape which could not be trademarked." Odd that the unique pattern of interlocking holes and columns on a Lego brick is obvious and technical. While a tablet computer being shaped like the piece of paper it replaces is protected
- semanticist 15y ago
  I think you're confusing trademarks with patents. Trademarks are to protect brand names and brand identities. Patents are to protect inventions and technical and design concepts. Lego could, and did, get patents for the blocks. That's the entire point of the Boingboing article - the patent was granted and has since expired.
  - nobody3141 15y ago
    There is a difference between trademark and patent. But Apple has a patent on making something that replaces a pad of paper look like a pad of paper - shouldn't a similar arguement apply?
    - fooandbarify 15y ago
      I'm sure most or all HN users would agree that the current patent system is broken. However, as is mentioned in the article and as semanticist pointed out, Lego was able to get a patent on an "obvious" idea, and so was Apple. In other words, a similar argument did apply.
      - deleted 15y ago
        [deleted]
      - natch 15y ago
        Obvious in retrospect. I had a friend who was a world expert in pen and touch interfaces and he had tablet computers from all over the place. None of them ever looked remotely like the iPad. They were all funky mishmashes that looked like they had been designed by committee whose main pool of ideas was based on hinges, swivels, styluses, and hideable keyboards. They were horrendous, but it wasn't obvious why until after I saw the iPad.
        marshray 15y ago
        You can't patent this meta-idea of a "clean design". The idea of portable rectangular displays with pen and touch input since the old sci fi shows. Apple simply didn't invent this. From what I read, the mere aggregation of existing things is not of itself considered patentable. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would consider the removal of knobs or buttons to be worthy of patent protection. (But then again, almost nothing about the patent system makes sense to me.)
  - dredmorbius 15y ago
    To be honest, the linked article references both. The Lego was patented 50 years ago. Patent terms generally range from 17-20 years (from issue or filing date). So Lego's original patent expired long ago. Patents cover functional inventions. Also mentioned is an earlier Boing-Boing story in which functional aspects of the Lego brick design were denied trademark protection. Copyright (not mentioned in the article) and trademark do not cover functional design, but literal expression (copyright) and trade dress (trademark). So, a rectangular brick functionally compatible with Lego bricks made by Acme, Inc., and branded appropriately, doesn't infringe Lego's trademark for its functional aspects. Even if these mean that the visual design of the brick is highly similar to a Lego brick (as it would have to be). Similar findings have been made in copyright law, particularly Sega v. Accolade, in which case a literal reference as part of the activation code of a compatible game was found to be functional, and hence, not a copyright infringement.
    - nobody3141 15y ago
      Lego had a patent on the design of the bricks 50 years ago - but failed to get a trademark on the shape of the bricks. Apple got a design patent on the general shape of the iPad. Design patents are a convenient way to get around the fact that trademarks offer much less protection than patents and are generally assessed rather more sensibly.
      - dredmorbius 15y ago
        My point is: even if they'd secured a trademark on the shape of the bricks, if that trademark covered functional aspects of that shape, the protections would not apply. Lego could attempt to enforce them, but a competent defence and court would reject them.
      - 0x12 15y ago
        Design patents are an abuse of patent law.
- 6ren 15y ago
  If it was held to be "obvious", the patent wouldn't have been granted. A utility patent lasts around 20 years, unlike a trademark which can last forever. For this reason, you may not use a trademark to secure a utilitarian design - that would be circumventing patent law. Trademarks are intended as an insignia of origin, to distinguish your product from someone else's, and not to protect an invention. Because those different purposes have different needs, different laws cover them. However, I would have thought there would be many different brick designs with similar utility to Lego: ovals, squares, triangles, different numbers of them, different arrangements etc. The only way I could see support for the judges' finding is if the Lego design was significantly better than the alternatives, in a functional sense. Moving on to the tablet: A (US) design patent only lasts 14 years - it's not a trademark that lasts forever. Although, like a trademark, it can also be invalidated if it is a utilitarian design (i.e. if it were usurping the law of utility patents): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_utility_patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_uti... Design patents can be invalidated if the design has practical utility (e.g. the shape of a gear). It's easy to imagine many slight variations of a tablet computer that are quite different from the iPad. Though, in my opinion, the general design of the iPad seems to have great utility, and therefore shouldn't be patented. Maybe what did samsung in was that their design was so exact a copy that it was virtually indistinguishable. They could have varied it a bit without losing functionality.
utunga 15y ago
interesting how, when first invented, the bumps went down kinda makes more sense to have the top side flat - but just feels so wrong to me now.... interesting
- sesqu 15y ago
  Where did you get that idea? The picture shown has the bumps on top.
- kleiba 15y ago
  Isn't that just a matter of how you hold the brick?!
- ErrantX 15y ago
  Just a theory; but it is possible the isometric connected bricks are depicted that way up so that you can see how it interlocks a little better. (although, that doesn't explain the 2D versions that are "upside down")
njharman 15y ago
Legos are beautiful. Elegant mathematical / engineering wise.
jayfuerstenberg 15y ago
Just in time too with 3D printers becoming more and more popular.
- speleding 15y ago
  Judging by how badly the Chinese imitation lego bricks stick together it is apparently not quite so easy to make proper bricks. I wonder if you can achieve the right "stickiness" within the manufacturing tolerances of a 3D printer.
  - archangel_one 15y ago
    I am guessing not - apparently Lego production has tolerances around 0.01mm (http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsAndFiguresContent/otherfiles/download98E142631E71927FDD52304C1C0F1685.pdf http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsA...) and 3D printer tolerances at best seem to be around hundredths of an inch? Although I agree that some of the knockoffs are significantly not as good (in that they don't click together properly), I would have loved to be able to create my own Lego bricks in my younger days and I'd probably put up with them being a bit slack if I had to. I wonder if Lego are worried - things would be pretty grim for them if in 10 years time any child could download and print out any set of interlocking bricks that they wanted...
    - vegardx 15y ago
      And Lego has seen this coming for years and done a lot of amazing things to reinvent itself. They had similar problems during the 90's with knockoff products and such, and was almost bankrupt at some point. They've introduced Lego Technic and later Mindstorm, which patented or not has no good competitors right now. Lego has a good brand name and a good product in a niche! Also, Lego Land in Denmark is awesome! I think kids for many generations will find joy in some kind of Lego products! At least I hope so, it's the best things ever!
      - archangel_one 15y ago
Havoc 15y ago
I suspect that it won't matter one tiny bit that its expired. I know if I had children I'd certainly pay a few dollars extra to get the real deal. Tried, tested, compatible with other pieces and most importantly safe for kids. The only thing that will come from this is that Lego's profit margin will take a minor hit. * Edited for typo
brianbreslin 15y ago
Would a custom - bespoke - lego shop work? I.e. I need a piece like this, so I order them made on a 3d printer and mailed to me?
- HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
  How much would you pay? As an aside, I really don't know why people get so excited about 3D printing to the exclusion of all other manufacturing methods. Lego blocks could easily be made to the accuracy required on a milling machine using technology that's 100 years old. And it would be much faster than printing. 3D printing is certainly useful, but it gets way too much press. About the only reason I can think of is that it's easier to DIY a RepRap than a CNC milling machine due to the much smaller forces required.
  - brianbreslin 15y ago
    3d printing in this case would be faster than manually using a milling machine. cnc could work though. I thought it would be more of a "this is clever" though i can't imagine charging more than $1-2/block and no clue if anyone would pay that. I haven't bought a lego in 20 years.
jh 15y ago
No I know what has been wrong all my life. I am missing the block from Fig. 1.

147 points by gmodena 15y ago

" Judges agreed with experts who said a brick was a technical shape which could not be trademarked." Odd that the unique pattern of interlocking holes and columns on a Lego brick is obvious and technical. While a tablet computer being shaped like the piece of paper it replaces is protected

semanticist 15y ago
I think you're confusing trademarks with patents. Trademarks are to protect brand names and brand identities. Patents are to protect inventions and technical and design concepts. Lego could, and did, get patents for the blocks. That's the entire point of the Boingboing article - the patent was granted and has since expired.
- nobody3141 15y ago
  There is a difference between trademark and patent. But Apple has a patent on making something that replaces a pad of paper look like a pad of paper - shouldn't a similar arguement apply?
  - fooandbarify 15y ago
    I'm sure most or all HN users would agree that the current patent system is broken. However, as is mentioned in the article and as semanticist pointed out, Lego was able to get a patent on an "obvious" idea, and so was Apple. In other words, a similar argument did apply.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - natch 15y ago
      Obvious in retrospect. I had a friend who was a world expert in pen and touch interfaces and he had tablet computers from all over the place. None of them ever looked remotely like the iPad. They were all funky mishmashes that looked like they had been designed by committee whose main pool of ideas was based on hinges, swivels, styluses, and hideable keyboards. They were horrendous, but it wasn't obvious why until after I saw the iPad.
      - marshray 15y ago
        You can't patent this meta-idea of a "clean design". The idea of portable rectangular displays with pen and touch input since the old sci fi shows. Apple simply didn't invent this. From what I read, the mere aggregation of existing things is not of itself considered patentable. It doesn't make sense to me that anyone would consider the removal of knobs or buttons to be worthy of patent protection. (But then again, almost nothing about the patent system makes sense to me.)
- dredmorbius 15y ago
  To be honest, the linked article references both. The Lego was patented 50 years ago. Patent terms generally range from 17-20 years (from issue or filing date). So Lego's original patent expired long ago. Patents cover functional inventions. Also mentioned is an earlier Boing-Boing story in which functional aspects of the Lego brick design were denied trademark protection. Copyright (not mentioned in the article) and trademark do not cover functional design, but literal expression (copyright) and trade dress (trademark). So, a rectangular brick functionally compatible with Lego bricks made by Acme, Inc., and branded appropriately, doesn't infringe Lego's trademark for its functional aspects. Even if these mean that the visual design of the brick is highly similar to a Lego brick (as it would have to be). Similar findings have been made in copyright law, particularly Sega v. Accolade, in which case a literal reference as part of the activation code of a compatible game was found to be functional, and hence, not a copyright infringement.
  - nobody3141 15y ago
    Lego had a patent on the design of the bricks 50 years ago - but failed to get a trademark on the shape of the bricks. Apple got a design patent on the general shape of the iPad. Design patents are a convenient way to get around the fact that trademarks offer much less protection than patents and are generally assessed rather more sensibly.
    - dredmorbius 15y ago
      My point is: even if they'd secured a trademark on the shape of the bricks, if that trademark covered functional aspects of that shape, the protections would not apply. Lego could attempt to enforce them, but a competent defence and court would reject them.
    - 0x12 15y ago
      Design patents are an abuse of patent law.
6ren 15y ago
If it was held to be "obvious", the patent wouldn't have been granted. A utility patent lasts around 20 years, unlike a trademark which can last forever. For this reason, you may not use a trademark to secure a utilitarian design - that would be circumventing patent law. Trademarks are intended as an insignia of origin, to distinguish your product from someone else's, and not to protect an invention. Because those different purposes have different needs, different laws cover them. However, I would have thought there would be many different brick designs with similar utility to Lego: ovals, squares, triangles, different numbers of them, different arrangements etc. The only way I could see support for the judges' finding is if the Lego design was significantly better than the alternatives, in a functional sense. Moving on to the tablet: A (US) design patent only lasts 14 years - it's not a trademark that lasts forever. Although, like a trademark, it can also be invalidated if it is a utilitarian design (i.e. if it were usurping the law of utility patents): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_utility_patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_patent#Comparison_to_uti... Design patents can be invalidated if the design has practical utility (e.g. the shape of a gear). It's easy to imagine many slight variations of a tablet computer that are quite different from the iPad. Though, in my opinion, the general design of the iPad seems to have great utility, and therefore shouldn't be patented. Maybe what did samsung in was that their design was so exact a copy that it was virtually indistinguishable. They could have varied it a bit without losing functionality.

utunga 15y ago

interesting how, when first invented, the bumps went down kinda makes more sense to have the top side flat - but just feels so wrong to me now.... interesting

sesqu 15y ago
Where did you get that idea? The picture shown has the bumps on top.
kleiba 15y ago
Isn't that just a matter of how you hold the brick?!
ErrantX 15y ago
Just a theory; but it is possible the isometric connected bricks are depicted that way up so that you can see how it interlocks a little better. (although, that doesn't explain the 2D versions that are "upside down")

njharman 15y ago

Legos are beautiful. Elegant mathematical / engineering wise.

jayfuerstenberg 15y ago

Just in time too with 3D printers becoming more and more popular.

speleding 15y ago
Judging by how badly the Chinese imitation lego bricks stick together it is apparently not quite so easy to make proper bricks. I wonder if you can achieve the right "stickiness" within the manufacturing tolerances of a 3D printer.
- archangel_one 15y ago
  I am guessing not - apparently Lego production has tolerances around 0.01mm (http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsAndFiguresContent/otherfiles/download98E142631E71927FDD52304C1C0F1685.pdf http://cache.lego.com/upload/contentTemplating/AboutUsFactsA...) and 3D printer tolerances at best seem to be around hundredths of an inch? Although I agree that some of the knockoffs are significantly not as good (in that they don't click together properly), I would have loved to be able to create my own Lego bricks in my younger days and I'd probably put up with them being a bit slack if I had to. I wonder if Lego are worried - things would be pretty grim for them if in 10 years time any child could download and print out any set of interlocking bricks that they wanted...
  - vegardx 15y ago
    And Lego has seen this coming for years and done a lot of amazing things to reinvent itself. They had similar problems during the 90's with knockoff products and such, and was almost bankrupt at some point. They've introduced Lego Technic and later Mindstorm, which patented or not has no good competitors right now. Lego has a good brand name and a good product in a niche! Also, Lego Land in Denmark is awesome! I think kids for many generations will find joy in some kind of Lego products! At least I hope so, it's the best things ever!
    - archangel_one 15y ago

Havoc 15y ago

I suspect that it won't matter one tiny bit that its expired. I know if I had children I'd certainly pay a few dollars extra to get the real deal. Tried, tested, compatible with other pieces and most importantly safe for kids. The only thing that will come from this is that Lego's profit margin will take a minor hit. * Edited for typo

brianbreslin 15y ago

Would a custom - bespoke - lego shop work? I.e. I need a piece like this, so I order them made on a 3d printer and mailed to me?

HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
How much would you pay? As an aside, I really don't know why people get so excited about 3D printing to the exclusion of all other manufacturing methods. Lego blocks could easily be made to the accuracy required on a milling machine using technology that's 100 years old. And it would be much faster than printing. 3D printing is certainly useful, but it gets way too much press. About the only reason I can think of is that it's easier to DIY a RepRap than a CNC milling machine due to the much smaller forces required.
- brianbreslin 15y ago
  3d printing in this case would be faster than manually using a milling machine. cnc could work though. I thought it would be more of a "this is clever" though i can't imagine charging more than $1-2/block and no clue if anyone would pay that. I haven't bought a lego in 20 years.

jh 15y ago

No I know what has been wrong all my life. I am missing the block from Fig. 1.