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Patriotism involves sharing the burdens of your country and working for its betterment. Among these burdens are moral burdens. If your country does something wr

Patriotism involves sharing the burdens of your country and working for its betterment. Among these burdens are moral burdens. If your country does something wrong the patriotic thing to do is to contribute to making it right. Calling this "collectivism" is bizarre. It is simply what it means to be patriotically committed to your country: you wish your country to thrive, not merely yourself.

systemvoltage 4y ago
This is a facade of morality is extremely condescending. Just because I don't support socialism != not serving the nation and being patriotic, looking out for the interest of the country. If you want to serve the country: build good communities, hold government accountable, make it efficient, engage in philantropy, join your local soup kitchen, be thankful for people that serve in the military and public services, serve if you can, run for public office and build good products/services that improve lives of people. I'd argue that not supporting individualism is doing a disservice to the country. It is the reason why we have transistors and MRI machines, medicines and vaccines, iPhones and semiconductors, agriculture and roads (paid by taxes, 40% from large corporations). The impact of which is on an unprecedented scale compared to virtue signaling reparations.
- DFHippie 4y ago
  You have missed my point. You can be conservative and patriotic. You can be liberal and patriotic. But if you are patriotically committed to your country, it means you agree to help carry your country's burdens. If your country has done something wrong and shameful, it is not patriotic to ignore this, much less to insist everyone else ignore it, or to hope they don't ignore it but that no one asks you to chip in. This is selfishness and dishonors the country you claim to love and support. The patriotic thing to do is to help right the wrong, make amends. This glorifies your country. This isn't to say this is any more than an ideal, but it is a mark worth aiming for, and when a country grants you citizenship it expects that you buy into this notion at least as an ideal. Yes, you can in effect buy citizenship in many places, but this is generally regarded as a shame and an embarrassment.
  - systemvoltage 4y ago
    May be we are talking past each other. "Collectivism" has a formal meaning and that's what I am referring to. Mao's collectivism. The sacrifice of the individual (killing of millions) for the good of the society. I am sure you would agree, given the definition, it is Un-American. > when a country grants you citizenship it expects that you buy into this notion at least as an ideal I hope this is not an accussation inclined towards my loathing of what's going on in this nation. If it is not, well said, if it is, then it is extremely condescending because any immigrant knows this better than anyone else. It is obvious and I live by it every single day. It makes me uneasy to hear this from someone, almost offensive and alienating.
    - uoaei 4y ago
      > I am sure you would agree, given the definition, it is Un-American. Why are you sure? What definition of "American" are you referring to? Do you claim authority to state what are America's values? It sounds like you insist that we obey the founding fathers' wishes about what constitutes the nation of the USA, grounded in some nebulous-if-real sense of "national identity and culture". Do you actually know what their positions are on matters of resource distribution, immigration, or healthy democracy?

systemvoltage 4y ago

This is a facade of morality is extremely condescending. Just because I don't support socialism != not serving the nation and being patriotic, looking out for the interest of the country. If you want to serve the country: build good communities, hold government accountable, make it efficient, engage in philantropy, join your local soup kitchen, be thankful for people that serve in the military and public services, serve if you can, run for public office and build good products/services that improve lives of people. I'd argue that not supporting individualism is doing a disservice to the country. It is the reason why we have transistors and MRI machines, medicines and vaccines, iPhones and semiconductors, agriculture and roads (paid by taxes, 40% from large corporations). The impact of which is on an unprecedented scale compared to virtue signaling reparations.

DFHippie 4y ago
You have missed my point. You can be conservative and patriotic. You can be liberal and patriotic. But if you are patriotically committed to your country, it means you agree to help carry your country's burdens. If your country has done something wrong and shameful, it is not patriotic to ignore this, much less to insist everyone else ignore it, or to hope they don't ignore it but that no one asks you to chip in. This is selfishness and dishonors the country you claim to love and support. The patriotic thing to do is to help right the wrong, make amends. This glorifies your country. This isn't to say this is any more than an ideal, but it is a mark worth aiming for, and when a country grants you citizenship it expects that you buy into this notion at least as an ideal. Yes, you can in effect buy citizenship in many places, but this is generally regarded as a shame and an embarrassment.
- systemvoltage 4y ago
  May be we are talking past each other. "Collectivism" has a formal meaning and that's what I am referring to. Mao's collectivism. The sacrifice of the individual (killing of millions) for the good of the society. I am sure you would agree, given the definition, it is Un-American. > when a country grants you citizenship it expects that you buy into this notion at least as an ideal I hope this is not an accussation inclined towards my loathing of what's going on in this nation. If it is not, well said, if it is, then it is extremely condescending because any immigrant knows this better than anyone else. It is obvious and I live by it every single day. It makes me uneasy to hear this from someone, almost offensive and alienating.
  - uoaei 4y ago
    > I am sure you would agree, given the definition, it is Un-American. Why are you sure? What definition of "American" are you referring to? Do you claim authority to state what are America's values? It sounds like you insist that we obey the founding fathers' wishes about what constitutes the nation of the USA, grounded in some nebulous-if-real sense of "national identity and culture". Do you actually know what their positions are on matters of resource distribution, immigration, or healthy democracy?