7 ms·

I lived out in Berlin where basically nobody except the police and the (really) bad guys are armed. Sure, there's burglary, but much more likely was bicycle the

I lived out in Berlin where basically nobody except the police and the (really) bad guys are armed. Sure, there's burglary, but much more likely was bicycle theft... I had three stolen in one calendar year. To be honest, I was more comfortable that none of my a-hole neighbors were armed, because they would have pulled a gun on you for leaving out the rubbish an hour too early or talking to loudly after 8pm.

burner556 4y ago
If you were armed too they probably would think twice.
- andrewstuart2 4y ago
  I really doubt the narrative that someone who would pull out a gun over trash would spare the time to think twice.
  - menacingly 4y ago
    so we can speculate far enough to imagine this person into existence, but no further
  - prepend 4y ago
    The pull a gun over trash scenario is kind of ridiculous because the gun puller would be arrested. And it just doesn’t happen. It would go like this: 1) I leave trash out 2) Neighbor yells and pulls out gun 3) I put up trash 4) I call police, neighbor is arrested and gun is taken away forever. I think there’s a perception of “crazy people owning guns” means they are just randomly doing things. Gun owners are typically pretty responsible or self-destructive. Half the US owns guns and there aren’t many crimes percentage wise. So the vast, vast majority just never do stuff with their gun. The actual argument is about the extreme outliers who murder people and commit mass shootings. There’s 20M firearm homicides [0] so that’s still super rare as a rate but the impact of each event is super impactful. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
    - throw0101a 4y ago
      > The pull a gun over trash scenario is kind of ridiculous because the gun puller would be arrested. And it just doesn’t happen. "Doesn't" is a strong word: * https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-cop-who-pulled-gun-man-picking-trash-outside-his-n1006851 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-cop-who-pulled... * https://www.fox4now.com/news/local-news/cape-coral-resident-pulls-gun-on-waste-pro-workers https://www.fox4now.com/news/local-news/cape-coral-resident-... > I think there’s a perception of “crazy people owning guns” means they are just randomly doing things. Gun owners are typically pretty responsible or self-destructive. The problem is there is no filter in the US for the people that are not "pretty responsible or self-destructive." Just about any rando can get a gun in many states. > The actual argument is about the extreme outliers who murder people and commit mass shootings. No, it's about the 'background noise' of destruction that is on proverbial page 17 of the newspaper: > A member of our well regulated militia allows a juvenile access to a loaded gun. The juvenile brings the gun to the home of a 14 year old friend, who shoots himself in the head unintentionally. He doesn’t survive. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1518365942589411329 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15183659425894113... > A member of our well regulated militia moves a loaded gun from a bedroom to a bathroom, then leaves it there. Her 6 year old son finds the gun when he goes to take a shower and shoots himself in the head. He does not survive. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1522993105066250241 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15229931050662502... > A (drunk) member of our well regulated militia spots her neighbor grilling burgers, so she walks over and points a handgun at his face and says "bang bang." When police arrive at her home, she points a cane at them and pretends it's a long gun. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1515816691808227336 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15158166918082273... See also: * https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting
    - soco 4y ago
      They would get arrested maybe - but only after I was already shot.
- Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
  That sort of thinking directly brought about WW1 as well as the Cuban missile crisis. If everyone was armed then society's short-fused lunatics are the ones most likely to misjudge a situation and start shooting first over something trivial. Goes a long way to explaining most shootings by the police too.
  - therealjumbo 4y ago
    CCW is very common in the US now, CCW holders are less likely to commit crimes than police officers. In general CCW or constitutional carry states don't see big wild west shoutouts at grocery stores so no. People are generally good and honest. Criminals are the exception to that, except they don't really care about whether or not carrying a weapon is illegal.
    - Arubis 4y ago
      > CCW holders are less likely to commit crimes than police officers. What’s “commit” here? Accusation, conviction, something else?
    - jka 4y ago
      That may be true, although it doesn't really address the parent commentor's line of argument: in environments where few (if any) people are allowed to have guns, concealed carry isn't necessary, and gun crime is rare.
      - therealjumbo 4y ago
        His argument was that a lot of people being armed leads to regular standoffs. CCW being very common and leading to almost no standoffs over stupid arguments absolutely does address it. I'm ignoring comparing individuals to nation states, which is just silly.
    - JKCalhoun 4y ago
      Reading a lot lately about "criminals" then brandishing during road rage incidents.
- nadavwr 4y ago
  What makes you think they'd think even once?
verdverm 4y ago
Pointing a gun at someone is generally a crime in the US. No need for the hyperbole around gun ownership and people's behavior
- alamortsubite 4y ago
  https://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/man-sought-in-murder-of-neighbor-after-argument-over-trash-cans/ https://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/man-sought-in-murder-of-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2018/09/21/you-pulled-gun-front-my-kids-over-mattress-man-said-then-he-was-shot-dead/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2018/09/21/you-pull... https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256489131.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/artic... https://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/04/three-charged-attempted-murder-pensacola-man-over-litter/9382999002/ https://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/04/three-charge... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/lake-county-man-shot-killed-neighbors-dog-for-digging-through-his-trash https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/lake-county-man-shot-kille... https://www.waaytv.com/news/update-man-shot-accidentally-in-lawrence-county-during-argument-over-garbage-can/article_1f741274-5967-11ec-b002-af35c04cdfbb.html https://www.waaytv.com/news/update-man-shot-accidentally-in-... Etc.
- wyldfire 4y ago
  Unholstering it and holding it down at your waist is still very threatening. And while it's not common, it definitely happens here in the US.
  - 3-cheese-sundae 4y ago
    That’s called brandishing and it’s still illegal
    - staticautomatic 4y ago
      Also could be civil assault
      - 4y ago
deleted 4y ago
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User23 4y ago
I literally can’t imagine Germans pulling a gun without just cause. We’re talking about people who won’t even jaywalk. I suppose most Berliners aren’t German anymore though. Edit: If I’m somehow wrong I respectfully ask that you please correct me.
- Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
  You asked respectfully, so I'll respond with total respect. I found some of the Berliners/Germans near where I lived (less affluent part of the city) to be very quick to extreme anger over any perceived social slight, amplified more so if done by an obvious foreigner like myself. Mostly it's these older guys, who grew up in a totally different culture, and absolutely it's only a tiny fraction overall. For example, I read this only today, and it really resonated with what I (very very occasionally) experienced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/in-no-city-have-i-felt-as-unsafe-as-berlin-opera-singer-sues-metro-over-racism-claims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/in-no-city-hav...
- cf141q5325 4y ago
  >We’re talking about people who won’t even jaywalk. Come on man. This is a stupid stereotype. To relate to the initial post, it is also very wrong that only police and the most dangerous parts of organized crime are armed. Germany has masses of inherited guns. They are just not visible. Breaking and entering are also a very real and common thing, although focused on when the owners are (presumed) away.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago
Eh. I live in a state where a lot of people own firearms, myself included, and have open carry laws as well as concealed carry permits. It really isn't a big deal. Unfortunately humans are humans and, worse, Americans are Americans, and crazy people go crazy and do crazy person shit with a lot more regularity than we'd like, which is only compounded by easy access to firearms. But I'm willing to bet most of my neighbors own guns, including the right-wing troll[0] living up the street. I have no real fear that any of them are going to pull a gun on me. [0] No seriously, this guy puts up intentionally inflammatory yard signs.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  I grew up in a place where gun ownership was the norm, and I have had a gun pulled on me in anger following a mutual fault car accident. People fuck up and get mad, confrontation happens. It is better for everyone if having firearms at hand is not the norm. Aside from that I also caught a stray bullet in the hand when I was 15. I was in the woods, it was hunting season, I should have known better, etc etc. Hundreds of miles of beautiful nature that it was my fault I was injured while exploring. The rural american attitude towards guns is indefensible. It just is. I'm as much a product of that culture as anyone, and in some ways as country as they come. But the problem isn't "crazy people" it is the guns.
  - jcims 4y ago
    >The rural american attitude towards guns is indefensible. It just is. Case closed! Damn, all that time wasted arguing. lol
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      How you feeling about this one today?
  - jonhohle 4y ago
    I know you’re being sarcastic, but it most definitely was the fault of the shooter who did not follow basic firearm safety rules (either not knowing what they were shooting at or what was beyond what they were shooting at). Firearm ownership is a right, but also must be taken seriously and responsibly. Regardless of the “mistake”, the offender should have been charged (hopefully with a felony).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
darksaints 4y ago
What about your neighbors in Austria, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Switzerland, or Norway? Because tons of those neighbors also own guns, but you aren't really any more likely to get shot there than you are in Germany (all of those countries have less than 3 deaths by firearms per 100k people). And if you're just looking at crime that is not intentionally self-inflicted, you're looking at less than 1 death per 100k. Almost all international statistics on gun ownership and gun violence in developed countries show a direct relationship between the two...at least until you take out the largest outlier, the United States. Then that relationship completely disappears. Because you aren't more likely to die because more people own guns. You're more likely to die when your neighbors are poor. A more rigorous approach, which keeps the US "outlier" but also doesn't discard developing countries shows an extremely strong relationship with crime: poverty. Specifically the number of people living below the poverty line. The US, despite it's level of wealth and development, has a huge poverty problem, and that poverty problem turns into violent crime problems in the US just like it does literally everywhere else in the world. Your neighbors in Austria, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Switzerland, and Norway have figured it out: actual functioning gun regulation that still liberally allows for gun ownership (even scary assault weapons!), but stronger emphasis on a well functioning economic society. It's quite a bit ironic that the gun control policies that the US left so vigorously pushes for won't really have a measurable effect, but the poverty-reduction measures that they have all but abandoned actually would. I really wish they could be steered in the right direction, but I've given up hope.
- vt85 4y ago
- em-bee 4y ago
  gun laws across the EU are pretty similar because they are all based on the same EU laws. switzerland is actually the most liberal and it doesn't have more guns either. there are no more guns in austrian cities than there are in germany, or as far as i could tell, anywhere else in europe. maybe more people in the country side have guns because they use them for hunting. a lot of guns are also used for sport. you would only see those on shooting ranges. otherwise they are locked away. i do agree with the idea about poverty. that makes a lot of sense and is sometimes that can and should be addressed.

burner556 4y ago

If you were armed too they probably would think twice.

andrewstuart2 4y ago
I really doubt the narrative that someone who would pull out a gun over trash would spare the time to think twice.
- menacingly 4y ago
  so we can speculate far enough to imagine this person into existence, but no further
- prepend 4y ago
  The pull a gun over trash scenario is kind of ridiculous because the gun puller would be arrested. And it just doesn’t happen. It would go like this: 1) I leave trash out 2) Neighbor yells and pulls out gun 3) I put up trash 4) I call police, neighbor is arrested and gun is taken away forever. I think there’s a perception of “crazy people owning guns” means they are just randomly doing things. Gun owners are typically pretty responsible or self-destructive. Half the US owns guns and there aren’t many crimes percentage wise. So the vast, vast majority just never do stuff with their gun. The actual argument is about the extreme outliers who murder people and commit mass shootings. There’s 20M firearm homicides [0] so that’s still super rare as a rate but the impact of each event is super impactful. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm
  - throw0101a 4y ago
    > The pull a gun over trash scenario is kind of ridiculous because the gun puller would be arrested. And it just doesn’t happen. "Doesn't" is a strong word: * https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-cop-who-pulled-gun-man-picking-trash-outside-his-n1006851 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/colorado-cop-who-pulled... * https://www.fox4now.com/news/local-news/cape-coral-resident-pulls-gun-on-waste-pro-workers https://www.fox4now.com/news/local-news/cape-coral-resident-... > I think there’s a perception of “crazy people owning guns” means they are just randomly doing things. Gun owners are typically pretty responsible or self-destructive. The problem is there is no filter in the US for the people that are not "pretty responsible or self-destructive." Just about any rando can get a gun in many states. > The actual argument is about the extreme outliers who murder people and commit mass shootings. No, it's about the 'background noise' of destruction that is on proverbial page 17 of the newspaper: > A member of our well regulated militia allows a juvenile access to a loaded gun. The juvenile brings the gun to the home of a 14 year old friend, who shoots himself in the head unintentionally. He doesn’t survive. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1518365942589411329 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15183659425894113... > A member of our well regulated militia moves a loaded gun from a bedroom to a bathroom, then leaves it there. Her 6 year old son finds the gun when he goes to take a shower and shoots himself in the head. He does not survive. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1522993105066250241 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15229931050662502... > A (drunk) member of our well regulated militia spots her neighbor grilling burgers, so she walks over and points a handgun at his face and says "bang bang." When police arrive at her home, she points a cane at them and pretends it's a long gun. * https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/1515816691808227336 https://twitter.com/Well_Regulated_/status/15158166918082273... See also: * https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting
  - soco 4y ago
    They would get arrested maybe - but only after I was already shot.
Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
That sort of thinking directly brought about WW1 as well as the Cuban missile crisis. If everyone was armed then society's short-fused lunatics are the ones most likely to misjudge a situation and start shooting first over something trivial. Goes a long way to explaining most shootings by the police too.
- therealjumbo 4y ago
  CCW is very common in the US now, CCW holders are less likely to commit crimes than police officers. In general CCW or constitutional carry states don't see big wild west shoutouts at grocery stores so no. People are generally good and honest. Criminals are the exception to that, except they don't really care about whether or not carrying a weapon is illegal.
  - Arubis 4y ago
    > CCW holders are less likely to commit crimes than police officers. What’s “commit” here? Accusation, conviction, something else?
  - jka 4y ago
    That may be true, although it doesn't really address the parent commentor's line of argument: in environments where few (if any) people are allowed to have guns, concealed carry isn't necessary, and gun crime is rare.
    - therealjumbo 4y ago
      His argument was that a lot of people being armed leads to regular standoffs. CCW being very common and leading to almost no standoffs over stupid arguments absolutely does address it. I'm ignoring comparing individuals to nation states, which is just silly.
  - JKCalhoun 4y ago
    Reading a lot lately about "criminals" then brandishing during road rage incidents.
nadavwr 4y ago
What makes you think they'd think even once?

verdverm 4y ago

Pointing a gun at someone is generally a crime in the US. No need for the hyperbole around gun ownership and people's behavior

alamortsubite 4y ago
https://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/man-sought-in-murder-of-neighbor-after-argument-over-trash-cans/ https://www.lapdonline.org/newsroom/man-sought-in-murder-of-... https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2018/09/21/you-pulled-gun-front-my-kids-over-mattress-man-said-then-he-was-shot-dead/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/crime-law/2018/09/21/you-pull... https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article256489131.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/artic... https://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/04/three-charged-attempted-murder-pensacola-man-over-litter/9382999002/ https://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2022/03/04/three-charge... https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/lake-county-man-shot-killed-neighbors-dog-for-digging-through-his-trash https://www.fox35orlando.com/news/lake-county-man-shot-kille... https://www.waaytv.com/news/update-man-shot-accidentally-in-lawrence-county-during-argument-over-garbage-can/article_1f741274-5967-11ec-b002-af35c04cdfbb.html https://www.waaytv.com/news/update-man-shot-accidentally-in-... Etc.
wyldfire 4y ago
Unholstering it and holding it down at your waist is still very threatening. And while it's not common, it definitely happens here in the US.
- 3-cheese-sundae 4y ago
  That’s called brandishing and it’s still illegal
  - staticautomatic 4y ago
    Also could be civil assault
    - 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

User23 4y ago

I literally can’t imagine Germans pulling a gun without just cause. We’re talking about people who won’t even jaywalk. I suppose most Berliners aren’t German anymore though. Edit: If I’m somehow wrong I respectfully ask that you please correct me.

Simon_O_Rourke 4y ago
You asked respectfully, so I'll respond with total respect. I found some of the Berliners/Germans near where I lived (less affluent part of the city) to be very quick to extreme anger over any perceived social slight, amplified more so if done by an obvious foreigner like myself. Mostly it's these older guys, who grew up in a totally different culture, and absolutely it's only a tiny fraction overall. For example, I read this only today, and it really resonated with what I (very very occasionally) experienced. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/in-no-city-have-i-felt-as-unsafe-as-berlin-opera-singer-sues-metro-over-racism-claims https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/in-no-city-hav...
cf141q5325 4y ago
>We’re talking about people who won’t even jaywalk. Come on man. This is a stupid stereotype. To relate to the initial post, it is also very wrong that only police and the most dangerous parts of organized crime are armed. Germany has masses of inherited guns. They are just not visible. Breaking and entering are also a very real and common thing, although focused on when the owners are (presumed) away.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 4y ago

Eh. I live in a state where a lot of people own firearms, myself included, and have open carry laws as well as concealed carry permits. It really isn't a big deal. Unfortunately humans are humans and, worse, Americans are Americans, and crazy people go crazy and do crazy person shit with a lot more regularity than we'd like, which is only compounded by easy access to firearms. But I'm willing to bet most of my neighbors own guns, including the right-wing troll[0] living up the street. I have no real fear that any of them are going to pull a gun on me. [0] No seriously, this guy puts up intentionally inflammatory yard signs.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
I grew up in a place where gun ownership was the norm, and I have had a gun pulled on me in anger following a mutual fault car accident. People fuck up and get mad, confrontation happens. It is better for everyone if having firearms at hand is not the norm. Aside from that I also caught a stray bullet in the hand when I was 15. I was in the woods, it was hunting season, I should have known better, etc etc. Hundreds of miles of beautiful nature that it was my fault I was injured while exploring. The rural american attitude towards guns is indefensible. It just is. I'm as much a product of that culture as anyone, and in some ways as country as they come. But the problem isn't "crazy people" it is the guns.
- jcims 4y ago
  >The rural american attitude towards guns is indefensible. It just is. Case closed! Damn, all that time wasted arguing. lol
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    How you feeling about this one today?
- jonhohle 4y ago
  I know you’re being sarcastic, but it most definitely was the fault of the shooter who did not follow basic firearm safety rules (either not knowing what they were shooting at or what was beyond what they were shooting at). Firearm ownership is a right, but also must be taken seriously and responsibly. Regardless of the “mistake”, the offender should have been charged (hopefully with a felony).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

darksaints 4y ago

What about your neighbors in Austria, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Switzerland, or Norway? Because tons of those neighbors also own guns, but you aren't really any more likely to get shot there than you are in Germany (all of those countries have less than 3 deaths by firearms per 100k people). And if you're just looking at crime that is not intentionally self-inflicted, you're looking at less than 1 death per 100k. Almost all international statistics on gun ownership and gun violence in developed countries show a direct relationship between the two...at least until you take out the largest outlier, the United States. Then that relationship completely disappears. Because you aren't more likely to die because more people own guns. You're more likely to die when your neighbors are poor. A more rigorous approach, which keeps the US "outlier" but also doesn't discard developing countries shows an extremely strong relationship with crime: poverty. Specifically the number of people living below the poverty line. The US, despite it's level of wealth and development, has a huge poverty problem, and that poverty problem turns into violent crime problems in the US just like it does literally everywhere else in the world. Your neighbors in Austria, Finland, Iceland, Czech Republic, Switzerland, and Norway have figured it out: actual functioning gun regulation that still liberally allows for gun ownership (even scary assault weapons!), but stronger emphasis on a well functioning economic society. It's quite a bit ironic that the gun control policies that the US left so vigorously pushes for won't really have a measurable effect, but the poverty-reduction measures that they have all but abandoned actually would. I really wish they could be steered in the right direction, but I've given up hope.

vt85 4y ago
em-bee 4y ago
gun laws across the EU are pretty similar because they are all based on the same EU laws. switzerland is actually the most liberal and it doesn't have more guns either. there are no more guns in austrian cities than there are in germany, or as far as i could tell, anywhere else in europe. maybe more people in the country side have guns because they use them for hunting. a lot of guns are also used for sport. you would only see those on shooting ranges. otherwise they are locked away. i do agree with the idea about poverty. that makes a lot of sense and is sometimes that can and should be addressed.