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I''m not defending Pedal Me but you could try to design the city so biking is safer https://www.treehugger.com/why-dutch-dont-wear-helmets-4858181 https://www.

by gernb 4y ago

I''m not defending Pedal Me but you could try to design the city so biking is safer https://www.treehugger.com/why-dutch-dont-wear-helmets-4858181 https://www.treehugger.com/why-dutch-dont-wear-helmets-48581... Sure you can still get in an accident. That's true of everything though. I don't go for a walk in a plastic bubble just in case a car hits me https://www.google.com/search?q=cars+hitting+pedestrians&tbm=vid https://www.google.com/search?q=cars+hitting+pedestrians&tbm...

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
Design won't do anything for the millions of ignorati that are handed drivers licenses without demonstrating driving competence.
idiotsecant 4y ago
You could have the best designed city in the world and you will still be at a high risk of your fragile brain case impacting the ground or something worse at speed. Whether you're pedaling down a country road or the busiest NYC intersection not wearing a helmet on a bike is stupid, full stop.
- _abox 4y ago
  In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike. I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.
  - nemetroid 4y ago
    Isn’t the Netherlands very flat? I would probably feel safe without a helmet if it weren’t for the hills. My usual ten minute ride has an elevation difference of 35 m.
    - GekkePrutser 4y ago
      Yes very flat. 35m isn't an awful lot though. You can pick up a lot of speed from a bridge in the Netherlands too.
    - mcv 4y ago
      That's kinda the point. People can bike under very different circumstances. If you're going at breakneck speed down a mountain trail, you definitely should wear a helmet. But if you're going at a leisurely pace through well-designed traffic, it's not nearly as vital. And it sounds to me like Pedal Me wants its riders to ride at a leisurely pace, rather than breakneck speeds.
  - petre 4y ago
    In the Netherlands normal cycle commuters almost never exceed 15 km/h. But I keep watching some Dutch road cycling youtube channel and they all wear helmets.
    - ghaff 4y ago
      And cycle commuting is part of the culture which probably makes it safer as well. Would wearing helmets make it even safer? Possibly. But one can always argue for incremental safety gear and processes.
      - mcv 4y ago
        Making helmets mandatory would probably discourage cycling. That happened in Australia at some point, and nobody wants that to happen here. That said, some cyclists here seem to be downright suicidal. Helmet or not, if you run a red light against traffic while watching your phone, you don't seem to be very attached to living. I've even seen parents direct their kids into ridiculously dangerous situations. Fortunately car drivers pay attention even to stupid cyclists here.
    - gernb 4y ago
      Do you mean to write "they all do not wear helmets"? or does "road cycling" mean something other than just using a bicycle on the road? I see few if any helmets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsMKxNORgQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsMKxNORgQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDVmUD_2eI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDVmUD_2eI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJypp7igJho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJypp7igJho
      - petre 4y ago
        No, I mean they all wear helmets. Cycling as in road cycling, group rides, as a sport, not for transportation. They're not professional cyclists, they all have other jobs. https://youtu.be/_QUPWs07mKU https://youtu.be/_QUPWs07mKU
        4y ago
  - mcguire 4y ago
    "In absolute terms, more people were killed in a car accident (237) than in a bicycle accident (203) last year, but this is different per kilometre travelled. Traffic mortality per billion vehicle-km was much higher among cyclists than among passenger car occupants (11 versus 1.6 deaths)." (https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatalities-larger-among-motorists-than-cyclists https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatali...)
    - charrondev 4y ago
      Is it as much about vehicle-km or per vehicle-km? At the end of the day people generally will avoid super long trips on a bicycle because it’s slow and strenuous.
      - mcguire 4y ago
        There are a lot of ways to slice those numbers; I like deaths / km as it describes the risks of traveling from point A to point B by various methods. On the other hand, it's likely skewed somehow by the fact that you rarely have more than one fatal accident per trip. Another way of looking at it is deaths / trip; a quick search shows 4,800,000,000 bicycle trips in 2019 for a rate of 48 deaths / billion trips and 229 deaths versus 3,600,000,000 car trips and 610 deaths or 169 deaths per billion trips. The average trip length in the US is apparently something like 10-15m which might make the number of automotive deaths per billion trips something like 130-200. Maybe. (I can't find an actual estimate of the number of trips.) Another way is deaths per population, see one of my other comments.
    - diebeforei485 4y ago
      Thing is, cyclists don't need to rack up as many kilometers as drivists. If you're riding a bike, you probably live in an urban place and you need only bike short distances.
    - _abox 4y ago
      Well, obviously cyclists are more vulnerable. Considering that the numbers are pretty low IMO. The Netherlands have 16 million people, most of which use bicycles for daily travel. 200 died in a year, especially elderly who are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not something that warrants extreme worry. There's always risk in a life. Also, it's something that is only a risk to the rider themselves so leaving it to their discretion is warranted IMO.
  - dd82 4y ago
    >I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. isn't this a good example of confirmation bias? it worked for you, so it must work for everyone the same as it did for you each time they require it. its your brain, I guess. and you do have that social health network to cover you when medical issues arise. guess it doesn't matter your quality of life post-brain injury :-)
    - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
      It clearly works for millions of Dutch cyclists.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- gernb 4y ago
  You can also trip on the stairs or a curb and smash your brain yet we don't wear helmets and armor to take a walk or climb some stairs. Apparently 30k-40k people a year die from stuff like that. (based on a quick google search so no idea if it's low or high) https://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-and-fall-accident/slip-and-fall-accidents.htm https://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-and-... What body/head armor are you wearing when you take a shower? > A study conducted by the Consumer Affairs Agency based in part on these statistics estimates that around 19,000 people lose their lives every year in accidents while bathing Your odds of dying as a pedestrian appear to be 7x more than cycling. Why are you not wearing armor while walking? Clearly it's irresponsible not to. https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm Are you ready to live in a society where it's expected you'll wear a helmet except when sleeping? You certainly don't want to be one of those people that slipped in your house and died. I don't. But, I'm also not willing to wear a helmet just to exist. Am I stupid? In 2050 will everyone be wearing helmets for walking and people like me will be considered needlessly risking death for not wearing one?
raegis 4y ago
Even well-maintained streets can get potholes, especially after huge weather swings. I once hit a pothole while biking and somersaulted over the handlebars. I landed on my back, but a slightly smaller rotation would have me in the hospital, or worse.

by gernb 4y ago

kevin_thibedeau 4y ago

Design won't do anything for the millions of ignorati that are handed drivers licenses without demonstrating driving competence.

idiotsecant 4y ago

You could have the best designed city in the world and you will still be at a high risk of your fragile brain case impacting the ground or something worse at speed. Whether you're pedaling down a country road or the busiest NYC intersection not wearing a helmet on a bike is stupid, full stop.

_abox 4y ago
In the Netherlands we're doing fine without them though. Nobody wears one on a regular bike. I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. Accidents can happen sure but the added hassle doesn't seem worth it. Of course things are different when you do high speed cycling or mountain biking.
- nemetroid 4y ago
  Isn’t the Netherlands very flat? I would probably feel safe without a helmet if it weren’t for the hills. My usual ten minute ride has an elevation difference of 35 m.
  - GekkePrutser 4y ago
    Yes very flat. 35m isn't an awful lot though. You can pick up a lot of speed from a bridge in the Netherlands too.
  - mcv 4y ago
    That's kinda the point. People can bike under very different circumstances. If you're going at breakneck speed down a mountain trail, you definitely should wear a helmet. But if you're going at a leisurely pace through well-designed traffic, it's not nearly as vital. And it sounds to me like Pedal Me wants its riders to ride at a leisurely pace, rather than breakneck speeds.
- petre 4y ago
  In the Netherlands normal cycle commuters almost never exceed 15 km/h. But I keep watching some Dutch road cycling youtube channel and they all wear helmets.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    And cycle commuting is part of the culture which probably makes it safer as well. Would wearing helmets make it even safer? Possibly. But one can always argue for incremental safety gear and processes.
    - mcv 4y ago
      Making helmets mandatory would probably discourage cycling. That happened in Australia at some point, and nobody wants that to happen here. That said, some cyclists here seem to be downright suicidal. Helmet or not, if you run a red light against traffic while watching your phone, you don't seem to be very attached to living. I've even seen parents direct their kids into ridiculously dangerous situations. Fortunately car drivers pay attention even to stupid cyclists here.
  - gernb 4y ago
    Do you mean to write "they all do not wear helmets"? or does "road cycling" mean something other than just using a bicycle on the road? I see few if any helmets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsMKxNORgQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbsMKxNORgQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDVmUD_2eI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfDVmUD_2eI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJypp7igJho https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJypp7igJho
    - petre 4y ago
      No, I mean they all wear helmets. Cycling as in road cycling, group rides, as a sport, not for transportation. They're not professional cyclists, they all have other jobs. https://youtu.be/_QUPWs07mKU https://youtu.be/_QUPWs07mKU
      - 4y ago
- mcguire 4y ago
  "In absolute terms, more people were killed in a car accident (237) than in a bicycle accident (203) last year, but this is different per kilometre travelled. Traffic mortality per billion vehicle-km was much higher among cyclists than among passenger car occupants (11 versus 1.6 deaths)." (https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatalities-larger-among-motorists-than-cyclists https://www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2020/31/decline-in-road-fatali...)
  - charrondev 4y ago
    Is it as much about vehicle-km or per vehicle-km? At the end of the day people generally will avoid super long trips on a bicycle because it’s slow and strenuous.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      There are a lot of ways to slice those numbers; I like deaths / km as it describes the risks of traveling from point A to point B by various methods. On the other hand, it's likely skewed somehow by the fact that you rarely have more than one fatal accident per trip. Another way of looking at it is deaths / trip; a quick search shows 4,800,000,000 bicycle trips in 2019 for a rate of 48 deaths / billion trips and 229 deaths versus 3,600,000,000 car trips and 610 deaths or 169 deaths per billion trips. The average trip length in the US is apparently something like 10-15m which might make the number of automotive deaths per billion trips something like 130-200. Maybe. (I can't find an actual estimate of the number of trips.) Another way is deaths per population, see one of my other comments.
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Thing is, cyclists don't need to rack up as many kilometers as drivists. If you're riding a bike, you probably live in an urban place and you need only bike short distances.
  - _abox 4y ago
    Well, obviously cyclists are more vulnerable. Considering that the numbers are pretty low IMO. The Netherlands have 16 million people, most of which use bicycles for daily travel. 200 died in a year, especially elderly who are exceptionally vulnerable. It's not something that warrants extreme worry. There's always risk in a life. Also, it's something that is only a risk to the rider themselves so leaving it to their discretion is warranted IMO.
- dd82 4y ago
  >I've had a few times where I slipped so fast I didn't even remember what happened but every time my arm was there protecting my head. Reflexes are awesome. isn't this a good example of confirmation bias? it worked for you, so it must work for everyone the same as it did for you each time they require it. its your brain, I guess. and you do have that social health network to cover you when medical issues arise. guess it doesn't matter your quality of life post-brain injury :-)
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    It clearly works for millions of Dutch cyclists.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gernb 4y ago
You can also trip on the stairs or a curb and smash your brain yet we don't wear helmets and armor to take a walk or climb some stairs. Apparently 30k-40k people a year die from stuff like that. (based on a quick google search so no idea if it's low or high) https://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-and-fall-accident/slip-and-fall-accidents.htm https://www.lawfirms.com/resources/personal-injury/slip-and-... What body/head armor are you wearing when you take a shower? > A study conducted by the Consumer Affairs Agency based in part on these statistics estimates that around 19,000 people lose their lives every year in accidents while bathing Your odds of dying as a pedestrian appear to be 7x more than cycling. Why are you not wearing armor while walking? Clearly it's irresponsible not to. https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm https://danger.mongabay.com/injury_death.htm Are you ready to live in a society where it's expected you'll wear a helmet except when sleeping? You certainly don't want to be one of those people that slipped in your house and died. I don't. But, I'm also not willing to wear a helmet just to exist. Am I stupid? In 2050 will everyone be wearing helmets for walking and people like me will be considered needlessly risking death for not wearing one?

raegis 4y ago

Even well-maintained streets can get potholes, especially after huge weather swings. I once hit a pothole while biking and somersaulted over the handlebars. I landed on my back, but a slightly smaller rotation would have me in the hospital, or worse.