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The comparison with other countries tends not to be made. Germany took huge amounts of money from the US, Japan (the CIA were rigging elections in Japan until

The comparison with other countries tends not to be made. Germany took huge amounts of money from the US, Japan (the CIA were rigging elections in Japan until a few decades ago), South Korea...in the 1940s, 100% this argument was justifiable. But after that point, particularly if you look at what happened in Central and South America, it is very clear that other explanations pre-dominate (and, not coincidentally, some of these places have been content to blame others all the way...Singapore was poorer than any country in Africa 60 years ago, had race riots worse than any place, they are now richer than most of Europe). Also, I did my PG thesis on this specific issue: whether you think it is right or wrong, this is how sovereign debt crises were resolved at the time. Egypt, Ottomans...there were few other options that creditors had because most of these places weren't nation states in the way we perceive them today. So passing financial management over to creditors or hypothecating specific revenues (something not mentioned in the article, but which happened in Haiti) were the only way that people agreed to lend...and they lent, they provided financing for everything. The article doesn't invert their question (deliberately, I think we all know what the agenda is here...it relates to contemporary politics only): if the US and France didn't lend, how does Haiti industrialise? The population had no savings, do you think roads and hospitals just spring up for free out of nothing? The US, Germany (in part), Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea...they all industrialised using foreign capital. Finally, I think forced labour was used in road construction in almost every country (certainly in the US). The implication today has to be that this was because of racism or some inherent desire for evil...it wasn't, it was because (once again) of the lack of reasonable alternatives.

rayiner 4y ago
Thank you, this is an insightful comment. > The comparison with other countries tends not to be made. I find that problematic because it reduces the situation in these developing countries to a moral narrative with the ultimate purposes of embettering descendants of european countries. But these narratives don’t facilitate solutions. The French are not, for example, going to ever pay back the $20 billion or so in reparations they demanded from Haiti. Nor are the British going to pay back the $1 trillion+ they expropriated from India. I’m much more interested in cross comparisons to industrial development to European countries. Bangladesh is currently industrializing using foreign capital. What parallels can be drawn to Germany or the US that would help keep that going? Because at the end of the day, the 6-7% annual GDP growth the country is currently enjoying is more significant to Bangladeshis than the combined effect of all the moral narratives ever penned about the country by the likes of the New York Times.
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Bangladeshis seem perfectly happy with a “Pakistan invested nothing in us from 1947-71” narrative while buying air defense systems from them well into 21st century.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    And they’re downright gleeful about the recent divergence in GDP per capita growth between Pakistan and India/Bangladesh, as well as Pakistan’s inability to get their birth rate down to replacement levels. But that doesn’t top India’s recent preoccupation with being mad not about the 700 years of Muslim rule prior to British colonization…
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      I don’t worship Aurangzeb and neither should anyone else. What’s going on is about erasing Muslims rather than moving forward (moving the buildings or building a new mosque on a different site, etc). Inventing sacred sites (and I am not saying this about Kashi/Mathura because those are well documented) is the oldest trick in the book (see attempts at Charminar in Hyderabad by Hindus, Shab Bhar Masjid in pre-Partition Lahore, etc)
      - selimthegrim 4y ago
        Speaking of Shab Bhar Masjid, today’s Google Doodle is of none other than Gama Pehlwan, who was involved in that and also saved lives of many Hindus during Partition.
tptacek 4y ago
Can you help me understand what your last paragraph is saying? There's a way to read it as a justification for forced labor, but I feel like I must be misunderstanding it.

rayiner 4y ago

Thank you, this is an insightful comment. > The comparison with other countries tends not to be made. I find that problematic because it reduces the situation in these developing countries to a moral narrative with the ultimate purposes of embettering descendants of european countries. But these narratives don’t facilitate solutions. The French are not, for example, going to ever pay back the $20 billion or so in reparations they demanded from Haiti. Nor are the British going to pay back the $1 trillion+ they expropriated from India. I’m much more interested in cross comparisons to industrial development to European countries. Bangladesh is currently industrializing using foreign capital. What parallels can be drawn to Germany or the US that would help keep that going? Because at the end of the day, the 6-7% annual GDP growth the country is currently enjoying is more significant to Bangladeshis than the combined effect of all the moral narratives ever penned about the country by the likes of the New York Times.

selimthegrim 4y ago
Bangladeshis seem perfectly happy with a “Pakistan invested nothing in us from 1947-71” narrative while buying air defense systems from them well into 21st century.
- rayiner 4y ago
  And they’re downright gleeful about the recent divergence in GDP per capita growth between Pakistan and India/Bangladesh, as well as Pakistan’s inability to get their birth rate down to replacement levels. But that doesn’t top India’s recent preoccupation with being mad not about the 700 years of Muslim rule prior to British colonization…
  - selimthegrim 4y ago
    I don’t worship Aurangzeb and neither should anyone else. What’s going on is about erasing Muslims rather than moving forward (moving the buildings or building a new mosque on a different site, etc). Inventing sacred sites (and I am not saying this about Kashi/Mathura because those are well documented) is the oldest trick in the book (see attempts at Charminar in Hyderabad by Hindus, Shab Bhar Masjid in pre-Partition Lahore, etc)
    - selimthegrim 4y ago
      Speaking of Shab Bhar Masjid, today’s Google Doodle is of none other than Gama Pehlwan, who was involved in that and also saved lives of many Hindus during Partition.

tptacek 4y ago

Can you help me understand what your last paragraph is saying? There's a way to read it as a justification for forced labor, but I feel like I must be misunderstanding it.