5 ms·

This is a hard one to trade off, as the engine does need maintenance even if it isn't used and still limits the lifespan of the PHEV. Even for commuting, havin

This is a hard one to trade off, as the engine does need maintenance even if it isn't used and still limits the lifespan of the PHEV. Even for commuting, having an oversized battery extends lifespan because of the reduced charge cycle per cell (and battery will generally last much longer than any engine). I do like the range boost of the engine though. Especially when exploring new areas and not having a consistent route and supercharge routine. Although going back to the pump always reminds me why pure electric is the future. (I've had both a Tesla and a Volt).

endisneigh 4y ago
My issue is that if you are relying solely on battery and your lifestyle and commute goes around it, a few things happen: 1. Say your 300 mile battery loses 30% in 5-10 years. So now you're down to about 200. In the winter in some areas you might lose another 30 to 50%. So now you're conservatively down to 100 miles. This still can be enough, but it's low enough where it's a hinderance. 2. The equivalent smaller battery as you've stated would drain faster, but it would also be substantially cheaper to replace to begin with. As a result the cost of the battery relative to the car is cheaper and the economics if buying a new battery makes more sense. Not to mention that only Tesla's have the super charger network, so it makes even less sense for non-Tesla EV owners. A battery range longer than the average trip distance * 2 is unnecessary. Ideally you'd have "just enough" + infrastructure to charge at said locations + gas to go further if necessary.
- josephcsible 4y ago
  > Say your 300 mile battery loses 30% in 5-10 years. But this is way, way more degradation than actually happens. > Not to mention that only Tesla's have the super charger network, so it makes even less sense for non-Tesla EV owners. This isn't true anymore in much of Europe, and in not too long it won't be true anywhere. > A battery range longer than the average trip distance * 2 is unnecessary. About half of your trips are longer than average.
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    > But this is way, way more degradation than actually happens. Not really, it’s in line with the battery warranty with more or less all EV manufacturers > This isn't true anymore in much of Europe, and in not too long it won't be true anywhere. We’ll see. > About half of your trips are longer than average. Sure but I’m talking about PHEV, obviously with BEV you have to be conservative.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      10-15% degradation in 150-200k miles at a US average of 14k miles a year gives 10% degradation per 10 years, so you are off by a factor of 3. https://themotordigest.com/tesla-lifespan-how-many-miles-will-it-last/ https://themotordigest.com/tesla-lifespan-how-many-miles-wil...
      - endisneigh 4y ago
        Seems to be wrong across all vehicles. https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ Approximately 15% per 6 years, in line with my estimate and the warranty offered by all manufacturers sans Hyundai.
        adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        A few key problems with this source. 1. It says very little about how the data is collected. Just "Geotab developed the tool based on an analysis of 6,300 fleet and consumer electric vehicles." that's not a lot of transparency. 2. It appears to be based largely on commercial vehicles (although see point 1, it's hard to tell). Consumers drive way less than commercial, which makes analysis by year less than useful. 3. It has a sample size of 6000 vehicles. That might sound like a lot, but since it is broken down into 21 different types of vehicle with about 3 models per type, that's only 100 vehicles per model+year. This would be less of a problem if they disclosed how many vehicles of each type they had, but they don't. 4. They also don't disclose how they have averaged vehicles. 5. The data they have that is easy to cross check (i.e. vs Tesla) shows that their numbers are way different from other sources https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... and https://www.evchargerreviews.net/should-you-worry-about-ev-battery-degradation/ https://www.evchargerreviews.net/should-you-worry-about-ev-b... that are much more transparent about their data. All in all, it's very unclear with that source where the data is coming from, how it is analyzed, and it's conclusions differ dramatically from much better analysis.
- libraryatnight 4y ago
  Someone hanging out on an engineering board, even a software engineering board, that believes that 2* is too much wiggle room is the funniest thing I've seen in awhile. That's not a dis, it's an engineer joke :P
  - endisneigh 4y ago
    2x range if you have gas backup is more than enough, why wouldn’t it be?
- akomtu 4y ago
  You should aim at 2 sigma range (95%), not average (50%). I'd be annoyed if every second trip I needed to plan my route around charging stations.
causality0 4y ago
and battery will generally last much longer than any engine What? Have you been driving GMC cars or something? Change the oil on schedule and engines last for decades.
- Aloha 4y ago
  Any engine, a Chevy LS, Ford Modular and successors, and 3rd Gen Hemi, are all good for a minimum of 200k. If not 4-500k, the transmission will invariably fail before the engine.
  - causality0 4y ago
    My Yaris currently has 240K and the '79 Toyota pickup I got from my grandfather is at 486K.
  - dzhiurgis 4y ago
    The core engine yes, but belts, chains, pulleys, tensioners, plugs, starter, generator, turbo, filters, exhaust and tons of other items will eventually fail, esp in bad climate or unmaintained.
    - causality0 4y ago
      For which there are endless third-party replacements. How many major components of a Tesla drivetrain can be swapped out for generic replacements?
      - dzhiurgis 4y ago
        Why would anyone make major Tesla component when market size is in single 100s? Most of that is replaced via scraped cars and I'm not sure what Tesla has to do with this - sure they DRM'd their cars, but so do many other do (friend had to "reprogram" his Porsche just after 12v battery change).
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The engine on my 33 year old truck is finally going in for a rebuild. Not because it wore out, but because it developed so many gasket leaks (water and oil) it became a nuisance. The secret to having the machinery last on a car is (as you said) oil changes, and I'll add suspension lube, too.

endisneigh 4y ago

My issue is that if you are relying solely on battery and your lifestyle and commute goes around it, a few things happen: 1. Say your 300 mile battery loses 30% in 5-10 years. So now you're down to about 200. In the winter in some areas you might lose another 30 to 50%. So now you're conservatively down to 100 miles. This still can be enough, but it's low enough where it's a hinderance. 2. The equivalent smaller battery as you've stated would drain faster, but it would also be substantially cheaper to replace to begin with. As a result the cost of the battery relative to the car is cheaper and the economics if buying a new battery makes more sense. Not to mention that only Tesla's have the super charger network, so it makes even less sense for non-Tesla EV owners. A battery range longer than the average trip distance * 2 is unnecessary. Ideally you'd have "just enough" + infrastructure to charge at said locations + gas to go further if necessary.

josephcsible 4y ago
> Say your 300 mile battery loses 30% in 5-10 years. But this is way, way more degradation than actually happens. > Not to mention that only Tesla's have the super charger network, so it makes even less sense for non-Tesla EV owners. This isn't true anymore in much of Europe, and in not too long it won't be true anywhere. > A battery range longer than the average trip distance * 2 is unnecessary. About half of your trips are longer than average.
- endisneigh 4y ago
  > But this is way, way more degradation than actually happens. Not really, it’s in line with the battery warranty with more or less all EV manufacturers > This isn't true anymore in much of Europe, and in not too long it won't be true anywhere. We’ll see. > About half of your trips are longer than average. Sure but I’m talking about PHEV, obviously with BEV you have to be conservative.
  - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
    10-15% degradation in 150-200k miles at a US average of 14k miles a year gives 10% degradation per 10 years, so you are off by a factor of 3. https://themotordigest.com/tesla-lifespan-how-many-miles-will-it-last/ https://themotordigest.com/tesla-lifespan-how-many-miles-wil...
    - endisneigh 4y ago
      Seems to be wrong across all vehicles. https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/ Approximately 15% per 6 years, in line with my estimate and the warranty offered by all manufacturers sans Hyundai.
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        A few key problems with this source. 1. It says very little about how the data is collected. Just "Geotab developed the tool based on an analysis of 6,300 fleet and consumer electric vehicles." that's not a lot of transparency. 2. It appears to be based largely on commercial vehicles (although see point 1, it's hard to tell). Consumers drive way less than commercial, which makes analysis by year less than useful. 3. It has a sample size of 6000 vehicles. That might sound like a lot, but since it is broken down into 21 different types of vehicle with about 3 models per type, that's only 100 vehicles per model+year. This would be less of a problem if they disclosed how many vehicles of each type they had, but they don't. 4. They also don't disclose how they have averaged vehicles. 5. The data they have that is easy to cross check (i.e. vs Tesla) shows that their numbers are way different from other sources https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-data/ https://electrek.co/2018/04/14/tesla-battery-degradation-dat... and https://www.evchargerreviews.net/should-you-worry-about-ev-battery-degradation/ https://www.evchargerreviews.net/should-you-worry-about-ev-b... that are much more transparent about their data. All in all, it's very unclear with that source where the data is coming from, how it is analyzed, and it's conclusions differ dramatically from much better analysis.
libraryatnight 4y ago
Someone hanging out on an engineering board, even a software engineering board, that believes that 2* is too much wiggle room is the funniest thing I've seen in awhile. That's not a dis, it's an engineer joke :P
- endisneigh 4y ago
  2x range if you have gas backup is more than enough, why wouldn’t it be?
akomtu 4y ago
You should aim at 2 sigma range (95%), not average (50%). I'd be annoyed if every second trip I needed to plan my route around charging stations.

causality0 4y ago

and battery will generally last much longer than any engine What? Have you been driving GMC cars or something? Change the oil on schedule and engines last for decades.

Aloha 4y ago
Any engine, a Chevy LS, Ford Modular and successors, and 3rd Gen Hemi, are all good for a minimum of 200k. If not 4-500k, the transmission will invariably fail before the engine.
- causality0 4y ago
  My Yaris currently has 240K and the '79 Toyota pickup I got from my grandfather is at 486K.
- dzhiurgis 4y ago
  The core engine yes, but belts, chains, pulleys, tensioners, plugs, starter, generator, turbo, filters, exhaust and tons of other items will eventually fail, esp in bad climate or unmaintained.
  - causality0 4y ago
    For which there are endless third-party replacements. How many major components of a Tesla drivetrain can be swapped out for generic replacements?
    - dzhiurgis 4y ago
      Why would anyone make major Tesla component when market size is in single 100s? Most of that is replaced via scraped cars and I'm not sure what Tesla has to do with this - sure they DRM'd their cars, but so do many other do (friend had to "reprogram" his Porsche just after 12v battery change).
WalterBright 4y ago
The engine on my 33 year old truck is finally going in for a rebuild. Not because it wore out, but because it developed so many gasket leaks (water and oil) it became a nuisance. The secret to having the machinery last on a car is (as you said) oil changes, and I'll add suspension lube, too.