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Imagine going grocery shopping because you need food to live. You see the prices posted and you pay at the register. Then a few months later Trader Joes sends y

Imagine going grocery shopping because you need food to live. You see the prices posted and you pay at the register. Then a few months later Trader Joes sends you a bill for $200,000… The entire Health care system is absolutely insane.

ketanmaheshwari 4y ago
These kind of overly simplified comparisons are tired and doesn't help anyone. Healthcare billing is insane yes but is not same as buying groceries.
- HFguy 4y ago
  But here's the thing...it could be made to be that simple.
- geoduck14 4y ago
  Let me give you a comparison from my personal experience. My wife was pregnant. The hospital she chose to give birth in specialized in giving birth. Our health plan was administered by a large company, and was used by over 10k employees at our company. During the pregnancy, I tried multiple times to determine how much the pregnancy would cost. Neither the hospital nor the insurance could tell me any estimate for the cost. I had no way to price shop or save or budget. I was completely at the whims of the hospital and insurance. Also. They over charged me for at least one procedure.
  - peter422 4y ago
    My wife gave birth at a hospital in our network, but our daughter needed ICU care (in their opinion). We were given no choice in the matter and our child was taken to the ICU. And surprise, surprise, the ICU doctor we had no choice in selecting was not in network, and a low 5-figure bill was racked up for care we didn't really want and our child almost certainly didn't need. Also a very difficult thing to fight when you've got a newborn.
    - spaetzleesser 4y ago
      "Also a very difficult thing to fight when you've got a newborn" Same for people with a serious disease like cancer. They don't have the energy to spend all their time on negotiating with hospitals ind insurance. They either pay up or go bankrupt.
    - Freak_NL 4y ago
      Man, that kind of experience would really make me lose faith in society. My wife needed a caesarian and was rushed to the operating theatre, but at no point was there any thought about cost — I just trusted that the doctors knew their business (and they did). It's so completely natural that anything that can happen while giving birth is covered by our mandatory healthcare insurance that the thought wouldn't cross your mind in the Netherlands (and obviously no bill came). Hospitals and pharmaceutical companies do funny stuff with pricing worldwide, but at least patients aren't usually bothered with it.
      - peter422 4y ago
        Well nobody really has faith in the system to begin with. We went into the process battling the system and ended it battling the system. The various types of care that were provided were all fine and good but the decisions about which care to do, who does it and how much it is going to cost leaves a lot to be desired. But you know that going in.
    - Chris2048 4y ago
      > We were given no choice in the matter How on earth can they charge you then?!
      - ridgeguy 4y ago
        Because they can. So they do. And when you don't pay, they sell your debt on to collections. Collections will sue to get a judgement against you, which will allow wage garnishment and other types of confiscation. Finally, say goodbye to your credit rating. They charge because the power in the hospital/patient relationship is so very asymmetric.
  - freedom2099 4y ago
    I live in France… my wife is pregnant and the birth will cost us nothing! Regardless what might happen.
- onion2k 4y ago
  How is it different?
- peterangular 4y ago
  If we're to exist in a capitalistic society where healthcare has a price tag, then I have a right to see that price and have confidence that it won't change arbitrarily. Due to the abstract nature and infrequent experience of healthcare solutions in the US, I believe people need to have these abstractions drawn to illustrate the absurdity of it all.
- LeoNatan25 4y ago
  In proper, modern countries, healthcare “billing” is simpler than paying for groceries.
- SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
  It is in my country, so why couldn't it be in the USA? Here we always know how much I'm going to pay for a procedure ahead of time, no surprises, procedures have sticker price just like groceries. - If you have health insurance: you always know ahead of time what hospitals are in network, then the price for all out of pocket expenses are listed in the contract with the insurance company (prices adjusted yearly). You only ever deal with your insurer, out of pocket co-pays came in next months bill, just like a phone bill or credit card bill , it is actually illegal for a doctor or hospital to charge you directly for anything in that case. Any dispute (like the one in the article) is a business matter between the insurer and the hospital, nothing to do with you. - If you don't have insurance and decide to go for a private hospital: the hospital will sell you a fixed price package for each procedure or a big package for the whole stay, each with a fixed contract signed ahead of time. There is no surprises, no one signs a "blank check" to the hospital like those "service agreements" in the USA.
- nnwright 4y ago
  And that sort of begs the question doesn't it? why isn't buying healthcare basically the same as buying groceries? both are large complex industries with lots of moving pieces that rely on vast networks of distributors. what makes healthcare so special that a person could see a 200x increase in the amount they were quoted for a service vs what they paid? From my own anecdotal experience, my domestic partner had to be hospitalized for a suicide attempt. The ambulance took her to the hospital in my neighborhood which was in my network. By law they had to place her on a 72 hope suicide watch in the intensive care unit. I called my insurance company to relay all this information and was assured that it would all be covered by my insurance since a) the hospital was in network and b) the treatment was legally required. Fast forward to 6 months later when I finally get the bill. For $40,000 ... because the insurance company only authorized a 2 day stay in the hospital when state law said the hospital couldn't release her until after the third day and despite the fact that this information was provided to the insurance company both by myself as well as the emergency room staff before she was admitted (I was sitting right next to them as they called, so there is no question they were aware of the circumstances). The insurance industry is an absolute nightmare and a parasite, providing no value to the ecosystem at a dramatically inflated cost. The sooner it is abolished and healthcare is made a fundamental human right and socialized the better off we will all be.
deleted 4y ago
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ModernMech 4y ago
It is only insane if you think the purpose of the healthcare system is to provide healthcare. A lot of people make that mistake. The whole thing makes more sense when you realize the purpose of the healthcare system is to generate profits.
- paulgb 4y ago
  No, because the entire purpose of grocery stores is also to make profits, and yet they price competitively and transparently. The problem is that healthcare has senselessly been given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that doesn’t allow price discovery to emerge.
  - ModernMech 4y ago
    > The problem is that healthcare has senselessly been given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that doesn’t allow price discovery to emerge. Right. Put differently, the healthcare system has been smartly given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that maximizes profits.
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
    The health care system has somehow figured how to get away with extremely predatory practices.
  - scollet 4y ago
    > the entire purpose of grocery stores is also to make profits This isn't true though. It's in the name.
midasuni 4y ago
There are 200+ healthcare systems in the world. Are there any nearly as insane as America’s?
- junofan 4y ago
  Vietnam’s is pretty nuts if you want to do some deep reading.
  - contingencies 4y ago
    I had to find a hospital in Haiphong once. Memories of limping in to an emergency ward at dawn begging for painkillers only to find the beds and floors covered in the blood of the last night's patients...
  - Hnrobert42 4y ago
    My experience with it has been decent, but I am an expat with Western money. For some stuff like a rabies shot or my girlfriend’s oral surgery, we used the public system. It was cheap and and reasonably efficient. For everything else, we used a private hospital. It was also cheap, and the quality was comparable to the US. E.g., under $500 total for an endoscopy, a sonogram, doctor’s visits, etc. to diagnose and treat a stomach ulcer. All of that was in the last 3 years in Ho Chi Minh City. Now, there certainly are some squalid hospitals, especially in the countryside. Further, $500 is a lot of money for most VN people. Having written all this, I guess I realize all I have are some anecdotes.
deleted 4y ago
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ketanmaheshwari 4y ago

These kind of overly simplified comparisons are tired and doesn't help anyone. Healthcare billing is insane yes but is not same as buying groceries.

HFguy 4y ago
But here's the thing...it could be made to be that simple.
geoduck14 4y ago
Let me give you a comparison from my personal experience. My wife was pregnant. The hospital she chose to give birth in specialized in giving birth. Our health plan was administered by a large company, and was used by over 10k employees at our company. During the pregnancy, I tried multiple times to determine how much the pregnancy would cost. Neither the hospital nor the insurance could tell me any estimate for the cost. I had no way to price shop or save or budget. I was completely at the whims of the hospital and insurance. Also. They over charged me for at least one procedure.
- peter422 4y ago
  My wife gave birth at a hospital in our network, but our daughter needed ICU care (in their opinion). We were given no choice in the matter and our child was taken to the ICU. And surprise, surprise, the ICU doctor we had no choice in selecting was not in network, and a low 5-figure bill was racked up for care we didn't really want and our child almost certainly didn't need. Also a very difficult thing to fight when you've got a newborn.
  - spaetzleesser 4y ago
    "Also a very difficult thing to fight when you've got a newborn" Same for people with a serious disease like cancer. They don't have the energy to spend all their time on negotiating with hospitals ind insurance. They either pay up or go bankrupt.
  - Freak_NL 4y ago
    Man, that kind of experience would really make me lose faith in society. My wife needed a caesarian and was rushed to the operating theatre, but at no point was there any thought about cost — I just trusted that the doctors knew their business (and they did). It's so completely natural that anything that can happen while giving birth is covered by our mandatory healthcare insurance that the thought wouldn't cross your mind in the Netherlands (and obviously no bill came). Hospitals and pharmaceutical companies do funny stuff with pricing worldwide, but at least patients aren't usually bothered with it.
    - peter422 4y ago
      Well nobody really has faith in the system to begin with. We went into the process battling the system and ended it battling the system. The various types of care that were provided were all fine and good but the decisions about which care to do, who does it and how much it is going to cost leaves a lot to be desired. But you know that going in.
  - Chris2048 4y ago
    > We were given no choice in the matter How on earth can they charge you then?!
    - ridgeguy 4y ago
      Because they can. So they do. And when you don't pay, they sell your debt on to collections. Collections will sue to get a judgement against you, which will allow wage garnishment and other types of confiscation. Finally, say goodbye to your credit rating. They charge because the power in the hospital/patient relationship is so very asymmetric.
- freedom2099 4y ago
  I live in France… my wife is pregnant and the birth will cost us nothing! Regardless what might happen.
onion2k 4y ago
How is it different?
peterangular 4y ago
If we're to exist in a capitalistic society where healthcare has a price tag, then I have a right to see that price and have confidence that it won't change arbitrarily. Due to the abstract nature and infrequent experience of healthcare solutions in the US, I believe people need to have these abstractions drawn to illustrate the absurdity of it all.
LeoNatan25 4y ago
In proper, modern countries, healthcare “billing” is simpler than paying for groceries.
SkeuomorphicBee 4y ago
It is in my country, so why couldn't it be in the USA? Here we always know how much I'm going to pay for a procedure ahead of time, no surprises, procedures have sticker price just like groceries. - If you have health insurance: you always know ahead of time what hospitals are in network, then the price for all out of pocket expenses are listed in the contract with the insurance company (prices adjusted yearly). You only ever deal with your insurer, out of pocket co-pays came in next months bill, just like a phone bill or credit card bill , it is actually illegal for a doctor or hospital to charge you directly for anything in that case. Any dispute (like the one in the article) is a business matter between the insurer and the hospital, nothing to do with you. - If you don't have insurance and decide to go for a private hospital: the hospital will sell you a fixed price package for each procedure or a big package for the whole stay, each with a fixed contract signed ahead of time. There is no surprises, no one signs a "blank check" to the hospital like those "service agreements" in the USA.
nnwright 4y ago
And that sort of begs the question doesn't it? why isn't buying healthcare basically the same as buying groceries? both are large complex industries with lots of moving pieces that rely on vast networks of distributors. what makes healthcare so special that a person could see a 200x increase in the amount they were quoted for a service vs what they paid? From my own anecdotal experience, my domestic partner had to be hospitalized for a suicide attempt. The ambulance took her to the hospital in my neighborhood which was in my network. By law they had to place her on a 72 hope suicide watch in the intensive care unit. I called my insurance company to relay all this information and was assured that it would all be covered by my insurance since a) the hospital was in network and b) the treatment was legally required. Fast forward to 6 months later when I finally get the bill. For $40,000 ... because the insurance company only authorized a 2 day stay in the hospital when state law said the hospital couldn't release her until after the third day and despite the fact that this information was provided to the insurance company both by myself as well as the emergency room staff before she was admitted (I was sitting right next to them as they called, so there is no question they were aware of the circumstances). The insurance industry is an absolute nightmare and a parasite, providing no value to the ecosystem at a dramatically inflated cost. The sooner it is abolished and healthcare is made a fundamental human right and socialized the better off we will all be.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

ModernMech 4y ago

It is only insane if you think the purpose of the healthcare system is to provide healthcare. A lot of people make that mistake. The whole thing makes more sense when you realize the purpose of the healthcare system is to generate profits.

paulgb 4y ago
No, because the entire purpose of grocery stores is also to make profits, and yet they price competitively and transparently. The problem is that healthcare has senselessly been given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that doesn’t allow price discovery to emerge.
- ModernMech 4y ago
  > The problem is that healthcare has senselessly been given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that doesn’t allow price discovery to emerge. Right. Put differently, the healthcare system has been smartly given a long leash to price opaquely in a way that maximizes profits.
- spaetzleesser 4y ago
  The health care system has somehow figured how to get away with extremely predatory practices.
- scollet 4y ago
  > the entire purpose of grocery stores is also to make profits This isn't true though. It's in the name.

midasuni 4y ago

There are 200+ healthcare systems in the world. Are there any nearly as insane as America’s?

junofan 4y ago
Vietnam’s is pretty nuts if you want to do some deep reading.
- contingencies 4y ago
  I had to find a hospital in Haiphong once. Memories of limping in to an emergency ward at dawn begging for painkillers only to find the beds and floors covered in the blood of the last night's patients...
- Hnrobert42 4y ago
  My experience with it has been decent, but I am an expat with Western money. For some stuff like a rabies shot or my girlfriend’s oral surgery, we used the public system. It was cheap and and reasonably efficient. For everything else, we used a private hospital. It was also cheap, and the quality was comparable to the US. E.g., under $500 total for an endoscopy, a sonogram, doctor’s visits, etc. to diagnose and treat a stomach ulcer. All of that was in the last 3 years in Ho Chi Minh City. Now, there certainly are some squalid hospitals, especially in the countryside. Further, $500 is a lot of money for most VN people. Having written all this, I guess I realize all I have are some anecdotes.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]