4 ms·

I’m not sure what you would need to dispute. Bitcoin, when used properly can’t be “stolen”. Compare that with Visa where every single merchant you come into con

I’m not sure what you would need to dispute. Bitcoin, when used properly can’t be “stolen”. Compare that with Visa where every single merchant you come into contact with can steal your card, and charge arbitrary amounts to it by design. As someone who has had to go through a few disputes in recent history, depending on the bank, they treat you like a criminal and need to go though an elaborate process to dispute. And if the merchant doesn’t agree you are SOL. Never lost a penny in Bitcoin where I’ve had thousands stolen from me via traditional credit cards.

4ggr0 4y ago
You order an item, pay in bitcoin, yet the merchant never ships the item. What now? With credit cards, you can dispute the charge and get your money back. With bitcoin, it's gone forever.
- oceanplexian 4y ago
  I’ve had that exact scenario happen with credit cards and didn’t get my money back. Not sure what the point is.
- mikegreenberg 4y ago
  Bitcoin transactions can be written to support escrow use cases. *Edit: Transactions can be sent to a script which requires multiple keys to forward the funds from that script address to a wallet address. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multi-signature https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multi-signature This is the primary mechanism for escrow services to function. If the need for a CC-like refund feature is important to the user, one could potentially use a service over Bitcoin which is party to a 2-of-3 multisig transaction. The payment may be settled immediately by the buyer and seller. Or either party may dispute with the service provider to settle according to some agreement.
  - djbusby 4y ago
    How? It's direct from wallet to wallet
  - lxgr 4y ago
    True, but then we‘re no longer talking about Bitcoin. The settlement layer is rarely the most interesting part of a retail payment system.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    To perform escrow with that technology a trusted third party is required, at which point, you are resolving disputes exactly the same way it works with credit cards: you are convincing some organization that the transaction wasn’t satisfied.
- junofan 4y ago
  Isn’t that due to regulation? Surely we can also apply some rules to payment processors that use a decentralized network under the hood and get the best of all worlds? Visa’s operating margins are insane. I think we can do better than a global oligopoly skimming %ages of every transaction.
  - sgammon 4y ago
    yes but that regulation is based on the root of trust of strong KYC and AML. bitcoin just uses a private key that anyone can generate and use. again by design
  - eptcyka 4y ago
    I'm pretty sure running the Visa network is a lot more energy efficient today. And you cannot discount the fact that miners will also skim percentages of every transaction.
    - ipaddr 4y ago
      Visa has a huge footprint and those plastic cards are not organic. The toxic material for printing plus the buildings and employees who drive in to work each day to keep the system going or the millions of miles Visa sales, repair, security, etc drive each year need to be counted. Miners are cheap.. Visa execs flying in private planes are worse for the environment.
edent 4y ago
If I pay for something, and the merchant doesn't deliver - I have a legal right to a refund which the credit card provider will give me. This is standard in the UK. If I'm daft enough to pay for something with Bitcoin - well, transactions are irreversible by design. So in the case of non-delivery, or a broken / misdecsribed product, there's no mechanism to force a refund. If your credit card provider treats you like a criminal - use the free market and choose another one. Or complain to the regulator. If your cryptocurrency provider is a bit rubbish… well, you're stuck with a single unregulated blockchain. I know which model I prefer!
- ipaddr 4y ago
  You have no right. Visa decides who wins the dispute. That may be the standard but get someone having a bad day and you might get the non-standard treatment.
  - edent 4y ago
    That's not my reading of the statute - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/75 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/75 Nor my experience.
kube-system 4y ago
Bitcoin can absolutely be stolen, and there is zero remediation process for when it happens. Eg: 1. You buy something on the internet. The merchant never ships it. 2. Your system is infected with malware and your key is stolen. Both of these scenarios are trivial to remediate on a major credit card network in a country with reasonable banking regulations, and impossible to remediate on the bitcoin network.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Isn't that how cash works where you would need to sue the store.. You wouldn't be able to reverse a bank card purchase without a court order either. If your computer is infected with malware and your bank allows someone to transfer the money in your account out there are some delay safeguards but you still could lose it. If you use an exchange they have some safeguards in place. If your holding the wallet you are the safe guard. Visa is charge upto 30% a year on balances now.

4ggr0 4y ago

You order an item, pay in bitcoin, yet the merchant never ships the item. What now? With credit cards, you can dispute the charge and get your money back. With bitcoin, it's gone forever.

oceanplexian 4y ago
I’ve had that exact scenario happen with credit cards and didn’t get my money back. Not sure what the point is.
mikegreenberg 4y ago
Bitcoin transactions can be written to support escrow use cases. *Edit: Transactions can be sent to a script which requires multiple keys to forward the funds from that script address to a wallet address. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multi-signature https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Multi-signature This is the primary mechanism for escrow services to function. If the need for a CC-like refund feature is important to the user, one could potentially use a service over Bitcoin which is party to a 2-of-3 multisig transaction. The payment may be settled immediately by the buyer and seller. Or either party may dispute with the service provider to settle according to some agreement.
- djbusby 4y ago
  How? It's direct from wallet to wallet
- lxgr 4y ago
  True, but then we‘re no longer talking about Bitcoin. The settlement layer is rarely the most interesting part of a retail payment system.
- kube-system 4y ago
  To perform escrow with that technology a trusted third party is required, at which point, you are resolving disputes exactly the same way it works with credit cards: you are convincing some organization that the transaction wasn’t satisfied.
junofan 4y ago
Isn’t that due to regulation? Surely we can also apply some rules to payment processors that use a decentralized network under the hood and get the best of all worlds? Visa’s operating margins are insane. I think we can do better than a global oligopoly skimming %ages of every transaction.
- sgammon 4y ago
  yes but that regulation is based on the root of trust of strong KYC and AML. bitcoin just uses a private key that anyone can generate and use. again by design
- eptcyka 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure running the Visa network is a lot more energy efficient today. And you cannot discount the fact that miners will also skim percentages of every transaction.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Visa has a huge footprint and those plastic cards are not organic. The toxic material for printing plus the buildings and employees who drive in to work each day to keep the system going or the millions of miles Visa sales, repair, security, etc drive each year need to be counted. Miners are cheap.. Visa execs flying in private planes are worse for the environment.

edent 4y ago

If I pay for something, and the merchant doesn't deliver - I have a legal right to a refund which the credit card provider will give me. This is standard in the UK. If I'm daft enough to pay for something with Bitcoin - well, transactions are irreversible by design. So in the case of non-delivery, or a broken / misdecsribed product, there's no mechanism to force a refund. If your credit card provider treats you like a criminal - use the free market and choose another one. Or complain to the regulator. If your cryptocurrency provider is a bit rubbish… well, you're stuck with a single unregulated blockchain. I know which model I prefer!

ipaddr 4y ago
You have no right. Visa decides who wins the dispute. That may be the standard but get someone having a bad day and you might get the non-standard treatment.
- edent 4y ago
  That's not my reading of the statute - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/75 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1974/39/section/75 Nor my experience.

kube-system 4y ago

Bitcoin can absolutely be stolen, and there is zero remediation process for when it happens. Eg: 1. You buy something on the internet. The merchant never ships it. 2. Your system is infected with malware and your key is stolen. Both of these scenarios are trivial to remediate on a major credit card network in a country with reasonable banking regulations, and impossible to remediate on the bitcoin network.

ipaddr 4y ago
Isn't that how cash works where you would need to sue the store.. You wouldn't be able to reverse a bank card purchase without a court order either. If your computer is infected with malware and your bank allows someone to transfer the money in your account out there are some delay safeguards but you still could lose it. If you use an exchange they have some safeguards in place. If your holding the wallet you are the safe guard. Visa is charge upto 30% a year on balances now.