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Except wealth isn't power with Bitcoin. That's the entire point of PoW. PoS is a little different.

Closi 4y ago
Of course with bitcoin wealth is power - you can use your bitcoin to influence people to do what you want, or to give you access to goods and services that people with less bitcoin / wealth can't access.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
alphabettsy 4y ago
Someone buying or selling 5% of all Bitcoin wouldn’t have any impact on its exchange value?
- nightski 4y ago
  Of course it would, even if a little. It looks like that is typically less than the daily traded volume. But if you added another 5% on top of it surely it would affect prices. But my point is the ability to affect the price a bit doesn't equal power in terms of control over Bitcoin itself.
- audleman 4y ago
  If they made a bad investment and lost that 5% they couldn't ask their friends in the Bitcoin corporation for a bailout. No politician could write a few lines of code and grant them a one-time issuance of new coins. No matter what percentage of coins one person, corporation, or government holds they have gained zero control over the network. Equality of rules, not equality of wealth.
iownzerobtc 4y ago
In PoW you can purchase miners. In PoS you can purchase validators. But PoS is easier than PoW to defend against a 51% attack as the offending validator set can be targeted.
- nightski 4y ago
  Miners do not have all the power in PoW. Nodes and miners form a symbiotic relationship. Also it is in a miner's best interest to not disrupt the system as their livelihood and profitability depend on it.
  - iownzerobtc 4y ago
    Those arguments can also be made for PoS.
- atweiden 4y ago
  > PoS is easier than PoW to defend against a 51% attack as the offending validator set can be targeted. Who decides which validators are malicious?
  - iownzerobtc 4y ago
    Depending on the type of attack, this defence is either part of the protocol, or can be coordinated by users in the network. Further reading here: https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html
    - atweiden 4y ago
      > or can be coordinated by users in the network Phone-a-friend consensus aka “weak subjectivity” doesn’t meaningfully differ from the administration of centralized Git repositories. If your blockchain requires human intervention to resolve disputes, as do all pure proof of stake implementations, you probably never needed a blockchain to begin with.
      - iownzerobtc 4y ago
        All blockchains require social coordination. How do you think Bitcoin operates? A protocol is developed and some facet of society decides to build a client to support that. Somebody adds a new BIP and the network of users may decide to coordinate in order to upgraded the protocol (soft or hard fork).
DennisP 4y ago
Large stakers in PoS don't necessarily have more power over governance than large miners in PoW. Some PoS chains have on-chain governance that give special voting power to stakers, but Ethereum's PoS chain for example does not.
- atweiden 4y ago
  Just to make sure I understand correctly, Eth2 stakers have no “voting” power, but are relied upon in a core capacity to ensure the continued functioning of the network? Something about this explanation seems incomplete.
  - DennisP 4y ago
    Yes, that's exactly it. That's also how miners work in PoW. In both cases, they get paid for what they do.
    - atweiden 4y ago
      Miners hold enormous political power in Bitcoin. Users and developers are dependent on miners to create blocks. The negotiating power of miners is self-evident.

Of course with bitcoin wealth is power - you can use your bitcoin to influence people to do what you want, or to give you access to goods and services that people with less bitcoin / wealth can't access.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

alphabettsy 4y ago

Someone buying or selling 5% of all Bitcoin wouldn’t have any impact on its exchange value?

nightski 4y ago
Of course it would, even if a little. It looks like that is typically less than the daily traded volume. But if you added another 5% on top of it surely it would affect prices. But my point is the ability to affect the price a bit doesn't equal power in terms of control over Bitcoin itself.
audleman 4y ago
If they made a bad investment and lost that 5% they couldn't ask their friends in the Bitcoin corporation for a bailout. No politician could write a few lines of code and grant them a one-time issuance of new coins. No matter what percentage of coins one person, corporation, or government holds they have gained zero control over the network. Equality of rules, not equality of wealth.

iownzerobtc 4y ago

In PoW you can purchase miners. In PoS you can purchase validators. But PoS is easier than PoW to defend against a 51% attack as the offending validator set can be targeted.

nightski 4y ago
Miners do not have all the power in PoW. Nodes and miners form a symbiotic relationship. Also it is in a miner's best interest to not disrupt the system as their livelihood and profitability depend on it.
- iownzerobtc 4y ago
  Those arguments can also be made for PoS.
atweiden 4y ago
> PoS is easier than PoW to defend against a 51% attack as the offending validator set can be targeted. Who decides which validators are malicious?
- iownzerobtc 4y ago
  Depending on the type of attack, this defence is either part of the protocol, or can be coordinated by users in the network. Further reading here: https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html https://vitalik.ca/general/2020/11/06/pos2020.html
  - atweiden 4y ago
    > or can be coordinated by users in the network Phone-a-friend consensus aka “weak subjectivity” doesn’t meaningfully differ from the administration of centralized Git repositories. If your blockchain requires human intervention to resolve disputes, as do all pure proof of stake implementations, you probably never needed a blockchain to begin with.
    - iownzerobtc 4y ago
      All blockchains require social coordination. How do you think Bitcoin operates? A protocol is developed and some facet of society decides to build a client to support that. Somebody adds a new BIP and the network of users may decide to coordinate in order to upgraded the protocol (soft or hard fork).

DennisP 4y ago

Large stakers in PoS don't necessarily have more power over governance than large miners in PoW. Some PoS chains have on-chain governance that give special voting power to stakers, but Ethereum's PoS chain for example does not.

atweiden 4y ago
Just to make sure I understand correctly, Eth2 stakers have no “voting” power, but are relied upon in a core capacity to ensure the continued functioning of the network? Something about this explanation seems incomplete.
- DennisP 4y ago
  Yes, that's exactly it. That's also how miners work in PoW. In both cases, they get paid for what they do.
  - atweiden 4y ago
    Miners hold enormous political power in Bitcoin. Users and developers are dependent on miners to create blocks. The negotiating power of miners is self-evident.