4 ms·

As the letter states, what you’re effectively denying is Ukrainian self-determination and agency. Does the U.S. “control” France? Germany? Clearly not.

guerrilla 4y ago
The US clearly does indeed have significant power over France and Germany and is always vying for more.
- macintux 4y ago
  And they also seek to influence the U.S. out of self-interest. That doesn’t make the U.S. a puppet state, nor are they puppet states.
  - wowokay 4y ago
    Exactly! Plus I know it might sound crazy, but US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission. If The whole world joined Warsaw and the US felt isolated I guarantee you wouldn’t see us invading Canada/Mexico/Europe in the name of self defense, even though provocative USSR tactics might actually warrant such a response. But the US doesn’t roll that way, generally we want good trade relations and non-interference, practically the whole world has been against us as different times and we still didn’t lash out. Providing humanitarian aid and weapons is not the same as sending your own people into a country against the worlds interest and claiming self defense.
    - caret 4y ago
      I don’t know if I wish I were this naïve, or glad I never was.
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      > US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission. Yes it does [1][2], the list is huge [3]. I don't know how you could possibly be this ignorant with the Internet existing. 1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism 3. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/how-many-countries-has-the-us-invaded https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/how-many-...
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      > but US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission I’m sure Central and South America are glad to know now.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    That reasoning only works if you ignore the extreme power imbalance.
ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
Of course the U.S controls France and especially Germany, that's a common point of contention in European politics. That's a result of globalism, trade agreements and having the biggest military in the world. Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Wishing for a fair world does not make it so.
- kcb 4y ago
  It's an huge leap to go from world foreign politics to "control". > Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Self-determination and agency is available to those who have the will to fight for it. Clearly they do have the means to fight for it based on their ability to secure vast military support from the west.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > It's an huge leap to go from world foreign politics to "control". Oh okay, it's just a coincidence that almost always get what they want and when they don't there's just coincidentally disaster.
- dantyti 4y ago
  >Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Fascinating claim about a country that has been successfully resisting a Russian invasion for 3 months with predominantly locally-produced (and upgraded) weapons. Nevertheless, if we steelman your argument and agree that Ukraine can never be truly self-determined and that it must choose between US or Russia, then not choosing a country that has done to Ukraine what the Russian Federation has been doing at least since 2003[1] seems favorable. There's also the matter of centuries worth of historic memory of repression and subjugation, tortures, rapes, murders, man-made famines, forced mass deportations, etc. perpetrated by Russian autocrats and dictators. And now, quite alarmingly, we are seeing Stalinist-style atrocities being committed in 2022[2,3]. With this in mind, falling under Russian occupation is the worst case scenario for Ukraine and Ukrainians. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Tuzla_Island_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Tuzla_Island_conflict 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre

guerrilla 4y ago

The US clearly does indeed have significant power over France and Germany and is always vying for more.

macintux 4y ago
And they also seek to influence the U.S. out of self-interest. That doesn’t make the U.S. a puppet state, nor are they puppet states.
- wowokay 4y ago
  Exactly! Plus I know it might sound crazy, but US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission. If The whole world joined Warsaw and the US felt isolated I guarantee you wouldn’t see us invading Canada/Mexico/Europe in the name of self defense, even though provocative USSR tactics might actually warrant such a response. But the US doesn’t roll that way, generally we want good trade relations and non-interference, practically the whole world has been against us as different times and we still didn’t lash out. Providing humanitarian aid and weapons is not the same as sending your own people into a country against the worlds interest and claiming self defense.
  - caret 4y ago
    I don’t know if I wish I were this naïve, or glad I never was.
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    > US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission. Yes it does [1][2], the list is huge [3]. I don't know how you could possibly be this ignorant with the Internet existing. 1. https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md https://github.com/binka/essays/blob/master/us_atrocities.md 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neocolonialism 3. https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/how-many-countries-has-the-us-invaded https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/how-many-...
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    > but US influence doesn’t involve invading other countries or even threatening them into some form of submission I’m sure Central and South America are glad to know now.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  That reasoning only works if you ignore the extreme power imbalance.

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago

Of course the U.S controls France and especially Germany, that's a common point of contention in European politics. That's a result of globalism, trade agreements and having the biggest military in the world. Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Wishing for a fair world does not make it so.

kcb 4y ago
It's an huge leap to go from world foreign politics to "control". > Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Self-determination and agency is available to those who have the will to fight for it. Clearly they do have the means to fight for it based on their ability to secure vast military support from the west.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  > It's an huge leap to go from world foreign politics to "control". Oh okay, it's just a coincidence that almost always get what they want and when they don't there's just coincidentally disaster.
dantyti 4y ago
>Self-determination and agency is only available to those who have the means to fight for it. Ukraine has none, it has whatever the nations providing 10s of billions in military aid allow it to have. Fascinating claim about a country that has been successfully resisting a Russian invasion for 3 months with predominantly locally-produced (and upgraded) weapons. Nevertheless, if we steelman your argument and agree that Ukraine can never be truly self-determined and that it must choose between US or Russia, then not choosing a country that has done to Ukraine what the Russian Federation has been doing at least since 2003[1] seems favorable. There's also the matter of centuries worth of historic memory of repression and subjugation, tortures, rapes, murders, man-made famines, forced mass deportations, etc. perpetrated by Russian autocrats and dictators. And now, quite alarmingly, we are seeing Stalinist-style atrocities being committed in 2022[2,3]. With this in mind, falling under Russian occupation is the worst case scenario for Ukraine and Ukrainians. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Tuzla_Island_conflict https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Tuzla_Island_conflict 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps 3 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre